Getting haircut+shaved helped ... Now I am pissed

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QFT
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24 May 2022, 1:06 pm

So I normally look disheaveled. But few days ago I got haircut and shaved, and the following happened:

1) The way some of the busses at my town work is that they stop at a platform that is in the middle of the street. In order to get there I have to wait for the green light, but green light is exactly when they drive off. They never stop for me when I run. I kept suspecting they didn't like my look so I was pissed at them. And you know I was right. Because after my haircut and shave, I was "about" not to even try to run since they never stop. But then I thought to myself "hey, I had haircut and shave, maybe they will wait for me this time". So I ran. And guess what, I was right: the bus stopped for me, even though it already started driving. Now, in the past it won't even wait for me when it didn't start driving yet. But here it stopped when it started driving, that is a lot more to ask, yet it happened.

2) I was at the grocery store, walking back and forth down the isle for like 5 or 10 minutes, talking to my mom on a cell phone, in Russian, in a loud+angry voice, telling her how I am pissed at some people (a different story). As I walked down the isle, a certain woman (probably around 30) smiled at me. I was surprised on several levels. First, unlike women in the past, she didn't try to walk away from me (as in, walk to a different isle since I was there or something of that sort). Secondly, she actually smiled (don't remember the last time it happened). Thirdly, the fact that the cell phone conversation was very loud didn't stop her from smiling. Unlike the past, where I was just walking silently and my mere look was driving women away. Then half a minute later she was passing by again. I looked at her to see if she would smile again. Sure enough, she did. Which brings the forth point. In the past, staring at women would make them walk away. Not any more: this time staring at her made her smile.

3) In order to test what I just wrote in the last sentence of "2", I was giving a stare at women passing me by. None of them crossed the street, and some of them returned my stare with a mini-smile. In contrast to what happened before I got my hair cut: in the past, "some" of them would increase a physical distance from me even if I don't stare. But if I do stare, then I would "make" them increase the physical distance even more. As if I am superman of some kind that my mere stare would drive a woman across the street. Not any more: this time the stare makes them smile at me. So I guess "its not polite to stare" is not true: its only not polite if I look disheaveled. Well I guess I am not talking about stare as in I keep looking for a long time. I am talking about a stare as in the look that lasts for few seconds is quite intense. Also by smile I mean just a tiny smile, not a big one. And by increasing physical distance I don't necesserely mean crossing the street: they could do that even if they are on the same side of the street too (although some did cross the street). But point remains: how come an intense look results in mini-positive reaction after I got a hair cut, while in the past it would have resulted in a mini-negative reaction, to say the least?

4) Something more obvious that happened when I was disheaveled is the following. A woman is waiting for an elevator, standing few feet away from the door. I am coming into the building, and coming in front of her probably just a feet away from the door (since I stand in front of her, there is no way she would ever think I would grope her, at least thats my reasoning). I get into the elevator. And then she doesn't. She waits for the next one. When I ask my mom whether she thinks I would grope her, my mom says no, its simply that its rude to run in front of someone like this. But my mom comes from Russian culture. I am wondering whether a woman who was born and raised in America would say that yes she was wondering if I would grope her (never had a chance to ask anyone other than my mom that question). But here is a better question. What would happen if I were to repeat the same exact thing now that I got a haircut and shaved? Its only been a week, so I haven't had a chance to run into a situation like that. But I am looking forward to finding out.

5) I was sitting on the bus near the back seat. The bus driver smelled someone smoking (which I didn't by the way) and apparently he thought whoever was smoking was at the back. So he specifically went to the back to tell whoever is there not to smoke. Apparently he knew it wasn't me. But I didn't know it. So I got pissed and yelled "I am the one who is smoking, I smoke marijuana". He just went back to the front of the bus and started driving. He preteneded not to hear anything I have said. This never happened before. In the past if I were to have an outburst like that, I would typically get at least "some" negative reaction. Not any more.

6) Since I realized that people respond better to me now that I had a hair cut and shaved, I decided to go to one of the meetings at the Christian Student Center where I only been twice before. I usually was going to a different Christian group, called Graduate Christian Fellowship. But I decided to switch around for a fresh start. One young lady kept asking me questions about me for like half an hour. Well, that doesn't exactly count since she is one of the organizers so its "her job" to make people welcome, plus the conversation was one-sided: it was just her asking me questions, not the other way around. And, finally, she is engaged, so I am not a "threat". But still: so much female attention is a lot more than I could ever bargain for, organizer or not, one-sided or not, engaged or not. Then there was another young woman who talked to me too. I guess to be fair that second woman talked to me during one of my previous visits too, even though I WAS disheaveled back then. But back then after talking to me for five minutes she got disracted to someone else, this time not. I would have to say though that back then what preceeded her getting disracted was my long monologue which this time I avoided. So it might not be about looks as far as that second lady is concerned. But still, what about the first lady (the organizer one): I don't think even organizers ever talked to me that long.

7) I was walking down the street and saw a herbal store along the way. I decided to buy some supplements for my glucose (I am not diabetic but I am suspecting I might be pre-diabetic, although still undiagnosed). After I got my supplements, the cashier lady was asking me about my life for like 10 minutes. Now, that lady was probably around 50 year old, so she doesn't have to worry about unwanted male attention. But still: before I got my haircut people weren't that likely to talk to me for that long, regardless of their age. Basically, ladies in the 20-40 range would avoid even saying hello to me. Ladies who were 50 or older would say hello and *maybe* talk for a minute or two *if I was lucky*. But nobody ever talked to me for 10 minutes.

8 ) When I was asking my mom why people don't talk to me, she was saying that I don't smile and look angry. Well, if you look at examples 2 and 5, I was pretty angry, wasn't I. In fact, most of the last couple of weeks I was quite a bit angry (a different story). Yet they responded more positively all because of my haircut and shave. I guess, to be fair, its true that during my "happy days" I got more positive attention. For example each time I got my physics paper published, people would respond more positively to me because I am in a happy mood (and no I didn't tell them about my paper, they just saw my smiling more). But point remains: the past two weeks I felt crappy to put it mildly. Yet people were positive towards me because of my hair cut.

9) The other thing my mom and others were telling me is that I should approach people myself. But notice how I haven't approached anyone in any of the above examples. They all started conversations for me. And by the way, staring doesn't count: as far as staring I did that before too, plenty of it. So I basically kept doing the same thing I always did: never approach anyone and, from time to time, give some people a stare. Yet my results are a lot better since I am no longer disheaveled.

Now, going back to the title of this post. Here is what I am pissed about: So okay I learned that I should take a hair cut and shave. But how much can I get out of what I learned? Not much. I still threw away the best years of my life. And the reason I threw the best years of my life is a combination of two things:

A. With all my obsessions of all kinds of things people judge me for, it never occurred to me to put my appearance in order

B. People judge by appearance

So I am angry at myself for A, and I am angry at other people for B.

Now my question is: since they were too shallow to overlook my dishaveled look in the past, can they at least overlook my age now, so that I can make up for the years I lost? If not, then it makes me doubly pissed.



klanka
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24 May 2022, 4:26 pm

I'm a similar age to yourself and recently left a bad marriage. I hit the gym, that's something else you could do.
I've only been looking to date since January so having to adjust to the strange way things are in the dating world. I'm used to how it was in the nineties :D
Just make the best of it from now on. You seem to be getting a lot of attention so be grateful!



Fnord
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24 May 2022, 4:54 pm

People judge by appearance.  In other news, water is wet.

Well, of course you get judged by your appearance!  By what else will distant strangers judge you?

No one is telepathic, so they cannot read your mind; and they are not God, so they cannot read your soul.

Judging by appearance is natural for humans.  It is best to accept this fact and adjust your appearance accordingly.



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25 May 2022, 10:21 am

Yup yup, I don't know about others, but I know I've been telling you to do something about your messy appearance for a while now. Glad to hear you finally did, curious to know why the change of attitude. Free coupons for the barber?

Anyway, while judging by the looks can be unfair in many cases, in many others it's only common sense, especially in s country like the USA where anyone could have a gun. People who avoid suspicious looking people aren't doing it to be shallow, they just try to play it safe.

Being angry at yourself for point A is good; it means you acknowledge that things are partly your own fault. Point B... well, people have to protect themselves from dangerous people somehow, don't they? If you encounter someone who looks suspicious to you, will you just walk up to them like to any other person, or will you play it safe and rather avoid that person? Of course, not every suspicious and messy looking person is dangerous, but better safe than sorry.

Who do you mean by "they" and in what context do you want them to overlook your age?

If you mean dating, I highly doubt you'll have much better chances with considerably younger women now than you did before, save for ones that go for older guys specifically. You might have a better chance with those women if you find them 'cause of course clean look is better, plus it could be that when you were messy you looked older than you actually were (beards have that effect on men from what I've seen.)

If you mean making friends with younger people and hanging out with them, I'm sure a clean look will be of at least some help if you try to get in to a group that also accepts older people. If you try to get in to a group that doesn't, and some groups are like that, it probably won't help. If it's about hanging out with young people, try to find a group that already also has someone from your age group, for that means that at least your age won't be a reason you'd get rejected.



Fnord
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25 May 2022, 10:45 am

Fireblossom wrote:
. . . while judging by the looks can be unfair in many cases, in many others it's only common sense. . .
If I had to chose between walking on the same side of the street as these blokes . . .

Image

. . . or walking on the same side of the street as these . . .

Image

. . . I would gladly choose the latter group.  It is just common sense.



Nades
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25 May 2022, 11:29 am

Fnord wrote:
[color=black]

No one is telepathic, so they cannot read your mind; and they are not God, so they cannot read your soul.



I'm saving that.



Fnord
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25 May 2022, 1:20 pm

Nades wrote:
Fnord wrote:
No one is telepathic, so they cannot read your mind; and they are not God, so they cannot read your soul.
I'm saving that.
Thanks!

:D



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25 May 2022, 5:25 pm

Fireblossom wrote:
Anyway, while judging by the looks can be unfair in many cases, in many others it's only common sense, especially in s country like the USA where anyone could have a gun. People who avoid suspicious looking people aren't doing it to be shallow, they just try to play it safe.


The question is: why should there be a correlation between looks and behavior? Putting different clothes doesn't magically make me a better person.



kraftiekortie
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25 May 2022, 5:30 pm

If you are disheveled and smell bad, people would tend to not like you, and be scared of you.



QFT
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25 May 2022, 9:52 pm

I thought of a better way to formulate my question. Imagine someone were to say "whoever is a good person, please raise your hand" and then after that say "whoever is a bad person, please raise your hand". Now, would you really think that the people in the second group are worse people than in the first group? No. They might be more honest with themselves, more self critical, or even they might suffer from depression of some kind. But I wouldn't say they are necesserely worse people, and I certainly won't say they are less safe.

And this brings me to the way people dress. Dressing well is the same thing as saying "I am a good person". Dressing poorly is the way of saying "I am a bad person". So why would judging people by the way they dress be any less silly than judging them by when they raised their hand in the above scenario?

If someone has bad intentions, wouldn't they dress really nicely so that they can sink under the radder as they carry out their evil plans?



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25 May 2022, 10:50 pm

QFT wrote:
If someone has bad intentions, wouldn't they dress really nicely so that they can sink under the radder as they carry out their evil plans?

Some people with bad intentions are smart and crafty and plan ahead. There's a famous serial killer whose name escapes me at the moment (Bundy? Manson?) who was supposedly attractive and would lure women into his car and then kill him.

More commonly, though, "trouble" is caused by people who don't plan. If they could think ahead, they'd think, "Gosh, I could get caught if I do this," and then not do it. People who can't think that far ahead tend to do more crime.



QFT
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25 May 2022, 10:55 pm

Pteranomom wrote:
More commonly, though, "trouble" is caused by people who don't plan. If they could think ahead, they'd think, "Gosh, I could get caught if I do this," and then not do it. People who can't think that far ahead tend to do more crime.


Here is the thing though:

1) If they plan, they would dress nicer than others

2) If they don't plan, they would dress just like everyone else

But what is the reason for them to dress WORSE than others? Because thats the common assumption that is being made, that for some reason or other criminals would dress WORSE than others. What could be a possible reason for that?

Actually, re-reading the text of yours that I just quoted, it seems like you did suggest one answer to my question, namely

3) If someone is a bad person but a good planner, then they would dress well AND be smart enough not to commit a crime so that they won't get into trouble. So dressing well is not a way of saying "I am a good person". Instead, it is a way of saying "even if I was a bad person I won't act on it because look: I am smart enough to dress well, so I surely would be smart enough to realize I could get caught if I did anything wrong".

Now, is "3" what you are suggesting?

But, if so, how can you really be friends with such a person? If they have ill motives but won't act on them, it means that you can be physically safe around them, but you won't really want to be "friends" with them.

Or could it be that the whole notion of friendship is a pretend-play to begin with. As in, everyone knows that everyone else is selfish and would eat you alive if they could get away with it. The only quetion is: "is it safe to pretend its not the case", which is tied to the question "are they smart enough not to act on their true motives" which in turn is tied to "are they smart enough to hide their true selves behind nice clothes". Is this what it is all about?



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26 May 2022, 12:44 am

Most people actually desire to look nice and enjoy various aspects of picking out clothes, grooming, and looking nice when they go outside.

Think of a bird caring for its plumage. Caring for its feathers does several things for a bird: it gets rid of parasites, keeps the feathers in good condition for flying, and signals to other birds--and predators--that this bird is healthy and in good condition for flying.

A wild animal that has stopped grooming itself usually has something wrong--typically it is sick or injured.

Humans are animals, too. We groom to keep ourselves clean and free of lice or fleas or other parasites. We brush our teeth to keep them healthy. We use clothes and hair and other parts of our appearance to signal things to other people, like "I am a doctor" or "I am a police officer" or "I am married" (a wedding ring) or "I am dangerous" (facial tattoos).

If someone looks like they aren't keeping up basic grooming, then, well, they look kind of like a hobo, and most people don't want to be around hobos. Homeless people tend to have a variety of severe problems, from bad hygiene to lice to untreated paranoid schizophrenia to drug abuse, and even if most homeless people are actually really good, most people just do not want to deal with that.



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26 May 2022, 1:08 am

QFT wrote:

Here is the thing though:

1) If they plan, they would dress nicer than others

2) If they don't plan, they would dress just like everyone else

But what is the reason for them to dress WORSE than others?


Because they're wearing the clothes they already own!

They can't "dress like everyone else" because there is no single thing people dress like. Doctors dress one way. Construction workers dress another way. Rich people have rich people styles. Hippies have hippie clothes.

Most criminals are dumb, violent, and impulsive. These are not traits that typically earn you a bunch of money to spend on nice clothes. They're traits that lead to getting facial tattoos.

Quote:
3) If someone is a bad person but a good planner, then they would dress well AND be smart enough not to commit a crime so that they won't get into trouble. So dressing well is not a way of saying "I am a good person".

Philosophically... Many people probably would commit crimes if they thought they could get away with them. But no, that's not what I was trying to say. A few criminals, including some very horrible ones, are good enough at planning to disguise themselves. Most of the time, though, criminals are just impulsive. They see something they want, so they grab it without thinking. The average IQ in prison is somewhere around 85. These people are not going to buy a suit so they can mug people more effectively.

By the way, I doubt anyone thought you were a criminal just because you needed a shave and a haircut. More likely you looked like a hobo.



QFT
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26 May 2022, 7:57 am

Pteranomom wrote:
Most people actually desire to look nice and enjoy various aspects of picking out clothes, grooming, and looking nice when they go outside.


But then if I don’t desire what most people do, how would it make me dangerous?

Not enjoying “various aspects of picking out clothes” probably goes right along the lines of not enjoying watching celebrities, which is also true about me: I don’t even recognize most celebrities names. Does the latter also make me look dangerous? If the answer is yes, how? If the answer is no, why would not enjoying picking out clothes be any different?

Pteranomom wrote:
Think of a bird caring for its plumage. Caring for its feathers does several things for a bird: it gets rid of parasites, keeps the feathers in good condition for flying, and signals to other birds--and predators--that this bird is healthy and in good condition for flying.

A wild animal that has stopped grooming itself usually has something wrong--typically it is sick or injured.


It’s interesting that you made bird analogy. Because I was always thinking of social skills as something artificial, something man made. Just like an animal would rather eat a garbage than a food with a bunch of artificial flavors, it won’t care that much for artificial culture either... or so I assumed.

But then again, cleaning its feathers seems familiar. So is human “artificial” culture just a way of “transferring” animal instincts into sophisticated world? For example I read a study where they show that people smell their hands after hand shaking, which suggests that the purpose of a hand shake is to find out the smell of other persons hands. Then they pointed out that animals smell each other directly, while people are too polite to do it so they invented a handshake. So are you saying that a pop culture, such as “enjoying picking out clothes” or a “celebration of celebrities” part of the same thing?

But, getting back to the topic, here is the new question. So you mentioned that an animal stops taking care of itself when it is unhealthy. So how would you explain, within this framework, why I weren’t taking care of myself? Would you say I am unhealthy? There is a theory that links autism to gluten/casein intolerance. So are you saying that, in light of this theory, autistics are unhealthy and that’s why they don’t keep up with their hygiene?

A related question is which aspect of being unhealthy would stop an animal from looking after itself? Is it the symptoms they feel (as in, they are too preoccupied with pain to care), or symptoms they don’t feel (as in, some biochemical stuff blocks their natural instincts)? Because in case of gluten/casein it seems like the latter rather than the former. So are you saying that, even though I have no symptoms, something is biochemically wrong with me (which is why I am on the spectrum to begin with), and that biochemical difference is what blocks my desire to keep clean — again despite not having any symptoms otherwise?

But then again, if you go with the theory that it “is” about being in actual pain, I can apply it to myself in a different way. No, I don’t have pain, but I have a lot of stress: constantly being behind at school. So due to that stress I conditioned myself not to “smell roses” so to speak, which includes not paying attention to hygiene. Now, could it be that since in evolutionary time school was not a thing, “more stress than others” translated into being “more sickly than others” (whether it be actual pain, or physical inability to fight off predators). Is this why when people see the symptoms of stress their evolutionary mechanisms translate it into being sick which in terms imply not associating with me?

I also have to correct myself. It’s not just stress, it’s also habbits. I mean, surely there are days when I am not stressed, yet I don’t watch over my cleanliness those days either. So could it, instead, be something along the following lines. If you replace “sick” with “sickly”, then a sickly animal has its healthy days too. But, during all of its sick days, it formed a habit not to look after itself. So that habit resulted in not looking after itself even when it’s healthy. Now if a sickly animal attempts to take advantage of its healthy days to reproduce, then other animals will need some way of knowing that it is sickly in order not to reproduce with it. And the way they will know is by looking at its habits. It still won’t clean itself since it lost that habit during its sick days. And the fact that it won’t clean itself is how it would give away it is sickly, despite being healthy at the moment. Is this how this thing works?

Then the whole other question is why do people assume I would be dangerous in terms of my behavior, as oppose to simply assuming I am contagious? Is it any of those theories, or something else:

Theory 1: in case of animals some illnesses affect behavior, such as rabies.

Theory 2: In evolutionary times unkept meant sick, and sick meant contagious which meant unsafe. Now, in order to survive, they didn’t have to know this whole chain of reasoning. All they had to know is that unkept meant unsafe. That’s why their instinct tells them this. And since they know I am unsafe but they don’t know why I am unsafe, they fill in the gaps incorrectly by assuming it’s behavior instead of being contagious

Theory 3: As mentioned earlier, today’s analogue of being sick is having some social stress. Well, in my case it is school stress, but that is a bit unusual. A more usual way of social stress is being a hobo. And, to continue the parallel, note the following. Sick people, who have physical stress, pass it on to others by being contagious. Hobos, with social stress, pass it on to others by committing crimes. Thus, both for hobos and sick birds, I can say the following: unkept implies some form of stress (whether physical or social) and that stress is being passed onto others (whether by being contagious or by committing a crime) and that’s why entities that experience said stress are being avoided.

Theory 4: Other. Please specify.

But here is one problem with some of those explanations that needs to be taken into account. If it was only about instincts developed via evolution, then why did the people that responded to this thread that it is actually a rational thing to do in the here and now? There are evolutionary developed behavior traits that are no longer useful in modern world and people are fighting it off. But this particular one doesn’t seem like one of them.

Pteranomom wrote:
We use clothes and hair and other parts of our appearance to signal things to other people, like "I am a doctor" or "I am a police officer" or "I am married" (a wedding ring) or "I am dangerous" (facial tattoos).


Well, I don’t have any tattoos at all, facial or otherwise.

But still this point is relevant in the following way. People with facial tattoos are saying “I am dangerous”, and people who are unkept are also saying “I am dangerous”. But the question is: what would be a logical purpose for anyone at all to say “I am dangerous”? If someone wants to do something wrong then “informing” others they are dangerous would go against the purpose.

In case of being unkept you said it’s because they don’t plan ahead. But in case of facial tattoos, they do plan, since they went through the trouble of scheduling an appointment, paying for it, etc. So why would they go through all those lengths to do something that goes against their purpose?

Pteranomom wrote:
If someone looks like they aren't keeping up basic grooming, then, well, they look kind of like a hobo, and most people don't want to be around hobos. Homeless people tend to have a variety of severe problems, from bad hygiene to lice to untreated paranoid schizophrenia to drug abuse, and even if most homeless people are actually really good, most people just do not want to deal with that.


As far as people not wanting to deal with homeless, I am on the same page because there are plenty of homeless where I am and I avoid them. And yes I remember how people assumed I was homeless and I got super angry at them.

But here is the thing. I have been unkept ever since moving out of my moms place at 21, but I first noticed people assuming I was homeless at the age of 34. Basically I went to India when I was 29 to do postdocs and returned back to the US at 34. So when I came back to the US from India, that’s when I noticed the first time that some people assumed I was homeless. Yet they avoided me ever since I was 21.

So are you saying that people assumed I was homeless back when I was in my 20-s, too, I just haven’t realized that?

Or if they didn’t assume that, what would be the other explanation why my being unkept drove them away? I mean the logic is unkept ==> homeless ==> unsafe. So if we take the middle piece out, then the first and third won’t be connected. So how did they say unkept ==>unsafe without inserting the homeless part in the middle?



Last edited by QFT on 26 May 2022, 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

kraftiekortie
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26 May 2022, 8:12 am

Why can't you make it simpler for yourself?

Why can't you just take showers and comb your hair? It only takes a few minutes per day.

I've known "disheveled" people, and have even been friends with them.

To me, it's just easier for me to be clean and neat----than to be dirty and disheveled.