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SkinnedWolf
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28 May 2022, 10:31 am

MaxE wrote:
I suspect there's a certain degree of turmoil and some innocent people have run afoul of the situation, but then the same thing is happening here although these things manifest quite differently. For example, in the US nobody, so far as I know, is detained simply for criticizing the Republican Party. But that doesn't make us a Utopia. I see people outside the US claiming to be afraid even to travel here.

In Christian scripture there's a famous line about "casting the first stone" although few Christians seem to have internalized that message despite giving it lip service. Not sure if that's relevant but I said it anyway.

That's where things get interesting. Because our left-wing internal view also believes that China after the reform and opening up is just a cunning student of the United States.
There are times when pro-establishment factions sincerely mock the United States. And sometimes we satirize China with the shell of the United States, but it often seems to really satirize two countries at the same time.

My impression of the United States is that it seems that many ordinary people who put their energies to focus on politics are drawn to "identity politics" or the struggles between politicians. (I'm not implying that identities are totally unworthy of attention) so that there is not enough energy to protest the flaws in the whole system.
That is, instigating internal struggle between the governed to divide opposition to the "ruler".


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MaxE
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28 May 2022, 10:50 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
My impression of the United States is that it seems that many ordinary people who put their energies to focus on politics are drawn to "identity politics" or the struggles between politicians. (I'm not implying that identities are totally unworthy of attention) so that there is not enough energy to protest the flaws in the whole system.
That is, instigating internal struggle between the governed to divide opposition to the "ruler".

You are not entirely wrong.


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The_Walrus
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28 May 2022, 12:38 pm

MaxE wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
What really surprises me is that not many Westerners get what you mean here.
Part of the reason may be that the few members who care about Chinese politics are not very active right now.
But another possibility is that maybe not that many people bought these tiny anti-China propaganda? Or actually many Westerners who care about politics don't care about China? I'm adjusting my assessment of "the outside world" on this.

I live in the US and I don't expect any Chinese person to care about my opinions on internal Chinese politics. Here in the US, we have plenty of our own problems. There is a special situation regarding Russia, in which Russia actively interferes with our domestic politics via a massive propaganda campaign, which succeeds perhaps not so much because they are so clever at it but because there are people here who deliberately enable them, because they believe that they stand to benefit politically from the instability the Russians are trying to achieve. I don't see the Chinese government doing this, or if they are, they are failing miserably lol. Maybe they are actively doing this in Australia but I don't see them doing it here.

EDIT of course everybody's spying on everybody else, I'm not going to point fingers.

China's approach is different to Russia's.

Russia's approach is driven by the fact that its ambitious outstrip its resources. Massive internet trolling - which is basically what the Russian "interference" is when it comes down to it - is cheap and easy to do.

China has no shortage of resources, but doesn't have established foreign intelligence the way that the West does. So they basically do something much more targeted than Russia - they will approach individual Westerners and try to "turn" them. Say, "hey, we have a job for you", pay them good money to write useless papers on the side, then ask them to fly out to China, and when they're in China make it clear that you want classified information and there will be trouble if you don't get it.

https://www.thelocal.de/20180706/severa ... ese-spies/

This doesn't only happen in Germany, but it was most successful there. I have been approached - and if I have, then they're clearly not just approaching important people. If even 1% agree to spy for China, that's a lot.



SkinnedWolf
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28 May 2022, 12:54 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
China's approach is different to Russia's.

Russia's approach is driven by the fact that its ambitious outstrip its resources. Massive internet trolling - which is basically what the Russian "interference" is when it comes down to it - is cheap and easy to do.

China has no shortage of resources, but doesn't have established foreign intelligence the way that the West does. So they basically do something much more targeted than Russia - they will approach individual Westerners and try to "turn" them. Say, "hey, we have a job for you", pay them good money to write useless papers on the side, then ask them to fly out to China, and when they're in China make it clear that you want classified information and there will be trouble if you don't get it.

https://www.thelocal.de/20180706/severa ... ese-spies/

This doesn't only happen in Germany, but it was most successful there. I have been approached - and if I have, then they're clearly not just approaching important people. If even 1% agree to spy for China, that's a lot.

Both of these things smell like something happening inside China. Here, that's mostly from the United States, Taiwan and Japan. Although Japan seems to be more focused on the former. And Taiwan is quite mature and cunning in internet trolling.

This appears to be a model of doing things in the absence of a mature intelligence agency on the ground.


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Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

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Last edited by SkinnedWolf on 28 May 2022, 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lostonearth35
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28 May 2022, 12:57 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Its an interesting idea. A spoof of slasher movies. Trying to remake Winnie the Pooh as Jason, or Freddy Kruger.


Because obviously there's still one tiny part of my childhood that hasn't been brutally murdered yet.



magz
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28 May 2022, 1:03 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Russia's approach is driven by the fact that its ambitious outstrip its resources.
Not just in Internet trolling...

The_Walrus wrote:
China has no shortage of resources, but doesn't have established foreign intelligence the way that the West does. So they basically do something much more targeted than Russia - they will approach individual Westerners and try to "turn" them. Say, "hey, we have a job for you", pay them good money to write useless papers on the side, then ask them to fly out to China, and when they're in China make it clear that you want classified information and there will be trouble if you don't get it.

https://www.thelocal.de/20180706/severa ... ese-spies/

This doesn't only happen in Germany, but it was most successful there. I have been approached - and if I have, then they're clearly not just approaching important people. If even 1% agree to spy for China, that's a lot.
That's interesting - I never heard of it here but probably East European countries don't interest China.
Being "insignificant" has its upsides.


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MaxE
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28 May 2022, 1:23 pm

magz wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Russia's approach is driven by the fact that its ambitious outstrip its resources.
Not just in Internet trolling...

The_Walrus wrote:
China has no shortage of resources, but doesn't have established foreign intelligence the way that the West does. So they basically do something much more targeted than Russia - they will approach individual Westerners and try to "turn" them. Say, "hey, we have a job for you", pay them good money to write useless papers on the side, then ask them to fly out to China, and when they're in China make it clear that you want classified information and there will be trouble if you don't get it.

https://www.thelocal.de/20180706/severa ... ese-spies/

This doesn't only happen in Germany, but it was most successful there. I have been approached - and if I have, then they're clearly not just approaching important people. If even 1% agree to spy for China, that's a lot.
That's interesting - I never heard of it here but probably East European countries don't interest China.
Being "insignificant" has its upsides.

This looks to me like fairly traditional spy craft à la John LeCarré. Makes me glad I don't know anything useful and will be retired soon. There was a time when I wanted to get a security clearance because of how it would benefit my career. Now I'm glad to not have any classified info in my head.


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SkinnedWolf
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28 May 2022, 1:47 pm

MaxE wrote:
There was a time when I wanted to get a security clearance because of how it would benefit my career. Now I'm glad to not have any classified info in my head.

In China, students at the seven universities involved in defense engineering have less internet freedom within the territory.
At the same time, they will be subject to much harsher scrutiny in their academic exchanges with the United States. Censorship from the United States.
They even have more trouble getting porn. :? Victims of "classified".


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Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
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naturalplastic
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31 May 2022, 6:40 am

lostonearth35 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Its an interesting idea. A spoof of slasher movies. Trying to remake Winnie the Pooh as Jason, or Freddy Kruger.


Because obviously there's still one tiny part of my childhood that hasn't been brutally murdered yet.


Yep!

Every corner has to be sullied! :D