is beauty in the eye of the beholder ?

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LePetitPrince
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19 Aug 2007, 9:34 am

^^ yes , then how you can explain when a whole bunch of guys(or girls) agree about the attractiveness of someone in specific ?

Like these bunch of girls i know at work , during the lunch break ( i was just eating and listening without participating in the convo ) one of them was talking about a specific co-worker guy and how much she finds him hot (and he's really apparently attractive in fact , he 's handsome , tall , muscly and charismatic ) and the 3 other girls agreed with her and they kinda melting when they were talking about him .

Same thing for guys , i remember that when bunch of guys at school and at univ talk about girls (usually girls of their own class) which is a very common conversation between guys when they are together and always seem to agree on the same girls as most hot girls of the class or of the school . I am sure that you saw such phenomenas before .

Never notice at bars or night clubs that the guys there usually float around the 10% of the girls there and leaving the other 90% girls?

Never notice that in real live shows like Big brothers , Star academy or Perfect Bride ( these shows are not my fav at all but my sisters watch them all the time ) usually the girls participants are drawn to 1 or 2 guys ? or better never notice that the girls of the audience usually applaud for 1 or 2 guys of this show and they are usually the most handsome ones ? (like in perfect bride for ex) ?

there's million of examples that show that beauty is not in the eye of the beholder ....or maybe this beholder represents the majority?



michel
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19 Aug 2007, 10:12 am

Beauty is an agreement we make that this or that, for now, is what's beautiful. But there is a minimum of symmetry required within each paradigm. Of course, if you really, truly march to the beat of a different drum, then yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But very few people are unaffected by what's thrust on them on a daily basis. And different cultures have different paradigms. When I lived in Europe, my natural body, which is slim but muscular, was considered very beautiful, and I ended up being photographed a lot. In California where I live now, I have to work out at the gym a LOT and take all kinds of supplements in order to be considered cute. Everyone here is obssessed with bulky muscles and it's very hard to stick to your guns, pardon the pun.



calandale
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19 Aug 2007, 4:26 pm

LePetitPrince wrote:
^^ yes , then how you can explain when a whole bunch of guys(or girls) agree about the attractiveness of someone in specific ?


Same way mass hysteria works.
Societal conformance. People are
sheep (mmm...sheep). But, I know
that I often find myself in disagreement
with others as to whether some female
looks good. And, when I point out what
I think does, usually the consensus is a
bit of shock, realizing that they'd missed
something so terribly real and attractive
for what they've been sold.



michel
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19 Aug 2007, 4:52 pm

Of course, I'm sure that someone out there likes fat women with hairy legs and tons of cellulite, but it's not the majority. Angelina Jolie, for example is a woman very few men or women would disagree is strikingly beautiful and sexy. And if you don't think she's even pretty, you haven't seen her in person. Jaw dropping, and I'm gay!
But maybe in the 20's, when big lips were considered ethnic and therefor undesirable, she would have been thought of as rather, well, ethnic looking, and her breasts too big...



calandale
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19 Aug 2007, 4:54 pm

michel wrote:
Angelina Jolie, for example is a woman very few men or women would disagree is strikingly beautiful and sexy. And if you don't think she's even pretty, you haven't seen her in person. Jaw dropping, and I'm gay!


As I've said, I'm not too impressed with her.
Hell, I'd not throw her out of bed, but I've seen
(and been with) women far more to my taste.
Quote:
But maybe in the 20's, when big lips were considered ethnic and therefor undesirable, she would have been thought of as rather, well, ethnic looking, and her breasts too big...


Then again, I'm an old man.



LePetitPrince
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20 Aug 2007, 6:20 am

I don't really agree with the media and sheep theory , after all the beauty traits that are showed on the media are based on real preferences of the majority .


Final Conclusion : Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder BUT the beholder represents the majority of people .



techstepgenr8tion
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20 Aug 2007, 6:26 am

calandale wrote:
I was obsessed with Jodie Foster,
as a teen. But, I wanted to be her.

The years haven't been too kind to her
though.


Heh, that wasn't you on the grassy knoll was it?



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20 Aug 2007, 6:29 am

LePetitPrince wrote:
I don't really agree with the media and sheep theory , after all the beauty traits that are showed on the media are based on real preferences of the majority .


Final Conclusion : Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder BUT the beholder represents the majority of people .


I'd call it half and half. There are certain physical traits that make up the classical senses of beauty: ie. symmetry, shape, flow of appearance and presence, the beholder part comes in when one factors in their own best interest or alternately what they've been raised to see as beautiful. IMO the most beautiful part of any person though is between their ears though, without that much in place outward beauty just washes out (and it makes it that much more of a shame that so many people with looks coast by on life so easy, it robs them of their intellect).



LePetitPrince
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20 Aug 2007, 6:30 am

http://www.phil.ncl.ac.uk/book/2005/umpleby.pdf



Last edited by LePetitPrince on 21 Aug 2007, 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LePetitPrince
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20 Aug 2007, 6:44 am

how many girl in the world would see this guy as attractive?

Image



Deus_ex_machina
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20 Aug 2007, 10:57 am

LePetitPrince wrote:
^^ yes , then how you can explain when a whole bunch of guys(or girls) agree about the attractiveness of someone in specific ?

Like these bunch of girls i know at work , during the lunch break ( i was just eating and listening without participating in the convo ) one of them was talking about a specific co-worker guy and how much she finds him hot (and he's really apparently attractive in fact , he 's handsome , tall , muscly and charismatic ) and the 3 other girls agreed with her and they kinda melting when they were talking about him .

Same thing for guys , i remember that when bunch of guys at school and at univ talk about girls (usually girls of their own class) which is a very common conversation between guys when they are together and always seem to agree on the same girls as most hot girls of the class or of the school . I am sure that you saw such phenomenas before .

Never notice at bars or night clubs that the guys there usually float around the 10% of the girls there and leaving the other 90% girls?

Never notice that in real live shows like Big brothers , Star academy or Perfect Bride ( these shows are not my fav at all but my sisters watch them all the time ) usually the girls participants are drawn to 1 or 2 guys ? or better never notice that the girls of the audience usually applaud for 1 or 2 guys of this show and they are usually the most handsome ones ? (like in perfect bride for ex) ?

there's million of examples that show that beauty is not in the eye of the beholder ....or maybe this beholder represents the majority?


And a bunch of people agreeing is a good source for information? That isn't even the majority, gah three girls and a bunch of guys and you act like I'm supposed to suddenly change my mind, what about all the people who say the person looks unattractive. Counts for nothing?

No, I've never been to a bar or nightclub, ever been to a BDSM night? Or Cyberpunk club?

And what excatly does a bunch of people being drawn to a certain person show?

I don't know, if you happen to see a bunch of people who clearly don't fit into the mainstream why don't you ask them if they are secretly attracted to the kind of person you're refering to, apparently they're attracted to the wrong person, or lying to themselves, according to you, and me too. :roll:

Maybe you could try looking into the effects our culture has on us?


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Deus_ex_machina
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20 Aug 2007, 11:00 am

LePetitPrince wrote:
how many girl in the world would see this guy as attractive?

Image


You're going to illogical extremes to prove a point, but it doesn't prove anything. Whether or not the average woman would find what is normally deemed as unattractive is not up for debate so stop trying to side step the issue. But there are certainly people who would find him attractive simply based on looks.


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calandale
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20 Aug 2007, 1:29 pm

LePetitPrince wrote:
I don't really agree with the media and sheep theory , after all the beauty traits that are showed on the media are based on real preferences of the majority .


Final Conclusion : Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder BUT the beholder represents the majority of people .


I still disagree with much of what you're saying.
The media has allowed tastes to change MUCH
more rapidly than they otherwise would.

So, what once would have been slow movements
in societal tastes (and ones which always had much
variance in individuals), are now rapid, and heavily
influenced by a small number of designers and
advertising execs.



Deus_ex_machina
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21 Aug 2007, 8:39 am

calandale wrote:
LePetitPrince wrote:
I don't really agree with the media and sheep theory , after all the beauty traits that are showed on the media are based on real preferences of the majority .


Final Conclusion : Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder BUT the beholder represents the majority of people .


I still disagree with much of what you're saying.
The media has allowed tastes to change MUCH
more rapidly than they otherwise would.

So, what once would have been slow movements
in societal tastes (and ones which always had much
variance in individuals), are now rapid, and heavily
influenced by a small number of designers and
advertising execs.


I'd say it's more like people reject the old and embrace something new, and eventually the designers catch on after it's died so they can popularise it, which causes people to reject the new popular fashion, and the cycle repeats itself. Although that's extremely simplistic.


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LePetitPrince
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21 Aug 2007, 12:32 pm

edit : http://writings.kennypearce.net/beauty.pdf (the link was wrong)

interesting part :

These sorts of things present all sorts of problems for subjectivist accounts of beauty. Such accounts are simply contrary to the intuitive, common sense beliefs we as humans hold. “ The judgment of taste,” as Kant says, “ ascribes assent to everyone, and whoever declares that something is beautiful wishes that everyone should approve of the object in question and similarly declare it to be beautiful.” 3 There is, then, a prescriptive element to judgments of beauty. To call something beautiful is to demand agreement from others. If others contradict our judgments of beauty and we fail to tell them that they are wrong, it is not because we actually believe that their opinions are equally valid. Rather, it is merely a social convention developed to maintain civility because it was decided that judgments of beauty ought not to be the cause of brawls, as in our earlier example. Our instinctive words and actions, on the rare occasions when they are unchecked by social conventions, show that our actual belief is that when a person makes an erroneous judgment of beauty they may as well have made an erroneous judgment of
color, and one who lacks this faculty Kant calls “ taste,” the ability to judge beauty, is just
like one who is completely color-blind.This person is unable to sense a property which is a very real part of the perceptions of the world common to other human beings.
It is with regard to this that Kant goes wrong. On Kant's account, beauty is not a part even of the representation (the mind's perceptions of the world), much less the “ thing in itself.” Rather, beauty is a power to cause the mind to operate in a certain way. This operation is rather complex.