When people are telling you what you think

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Fnord
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07 Jun 2022, 2:17 pm

QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
. . . in case of saying you like someone when you don't, what would be the purpose of lie in this case?
You would have to ask a person who does this; but do not expect an honest answer.
Well, the question is not about the actual reason but rather "what are the logically conceivable possibilities". Because I see none. But if you can help me out and present some examples, that would help. . .
Why do people say one thing and do another?

Change of Mind: They really meant what they said at the time, but changed their minds later.

Delusion: They believe their actions match their words.

Gaslighting: They are trying to make you doubt your own senses.

Hypocrisy: They want others to do as they say, but not as they do.

Sweet Talk: They want to gain people's trust before taking advantage of them.

Virtue Signaling: They want to look good without having to do good.

Wishful Thinking: They hope to make it true someday.

These are just a few guesses.  Ask your therapist for more information.



Last edited by Fnord on 07 Jun 2022, 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hurtloam
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07 Jun 2022, 2:19 pm

So, I've known some young men who want to wait till marriage like you do. But guess what. Some women thought they were only interested in sex and not who they really were.

You're thinking, "what? But he's waiting?!"

But surely you want to have sex with her once you are married?

These women want a partner who is not only sexually attracted to them, but who is enamoured with their personality too. They could tell these guys were only after a sex partner. Marriage was just a toll to pay to get it.

You surely know people who got married too young to the totally wrong person because they acted on lust. And some of them are divorced now and some stick it out unhappily.



QFT
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07 Jun 2022, 2:27 pm

Fnord wrote:
Change of Mind: They really meant what they said at the time, but changed their minds later.


In this case, the direction of change of mind would be from not liking the girl to liking her, if at first actions shown he didn't like but now he does. But in case of this particular direction, why would she reject him based on his past feelings if his current feelings are the ones in liking her.

Fnord wrote:
Delusion: They believe their actions match their words.


This is the big one that I was wondering about all along.

How can one be deluded about their own feelings? It is easy to be deluded about feelings of others. But being deluded about one's own seems logically imossible.

Yet thats what people seem to insinuate about me so I am wondering how is it possible?

Fnord wrote:
Hypocrisy: They want others to do as they say, but not as they do.


In example of dating, that would be wanting the woman to give you some sort of attention. But why would one want it if one presumably doesn't like her?

Fnord wrote:
Sweet Talk: They want to gain people's trust before taking advantage of them.


Taking advantage in what way? Sex? But that link in OP talked about women seemingly disbelieving the guy that he wants sex. What else would it be then?

Fnord wrote:
Virtue Signaling: They want to look good without having to do good.


But it is not inherently better to like a specific girl than not to like her. After all, there is just one person that you are supposed to like. So whether that one person is that girl or not, that doesn't make it better or worse.

However, to answer my own question, in my case there are 0 people that like me back. So in my case, yes I would look better if I date, say, Katie because nobody BESIDES Katie would ever date me, and dating someone looks better than not.

So do you think that is what women are assuming? If so, that assumption would only be applicable to guys with really bad social skills such as myself.

Fnord wrote:
Wishful Thinking: They hope to make it true someday.


Why would they hope to make it true with this girl rather than some other girl? So there is got to be *something* they like about her.

Unless, again, we are taking about someone like me who can't get any other girl to like them.



Fnord
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07 Jun 2022, 2:32 pm

Dude, you are over-analyzing again.  Just accept the fact that some people say one thing, mean another, and do something completely different; avoid those that do; and get on with your life -- simple, huh?



QFT
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07 Jun 2022, 2:38 pm

hurtloam wrote:
So, I've known some young men who want to wait till marriage like you do. But guess what. Some women thought they were only interested in sex and not who they really were.

You're thinking, "what? But he's waiting?!"

But surely you want to have sex with her once you are married?

These women want a partner who is not only sexually attracted to them, but who is enamoured with their personality too. They could tell these guys were only after a sex partner. Marriage was just a toll to pay to get it.

You surely know people who got married too young to the totally wrong person because they acted on lust. And some of them are divorced now and some stick it out unhappily.


Well, apart from not believing in sex before marriage, I also don't believe in divorce, because Jesus said divorce is adultery in Matthew 5:32. For that reason I am actually scared of marriage. That was actually one of the reasons my ex broke up with me back in 2009: she was pushing for marriage and I kept trying to postpone it.

However, I know that I don't want my genetic line to die out. This logically means I do want to marry and have kids. I just want to keep putting it off and it gets scary when time runs so fast: I am 42 and I wish I was in my 20s.

In any case, I was 29 when my ex was pushing for marriage and I didn't want it. Now, at 42, I probably would take marriage since I realize if I won't marry soon I might never marry and that prospect scares me too since I want kids.

As far as the sex part, well, logically, I need to have sex to have kids. So I guess I am looking for sex in this sense. But that won't be the sex as the end in itself. Now, its true that if I were to marry I would have sex on a regular basis as opposed to just having it once to have kids. But that is not the purpose of marriage. The main purpose is to have kids (otherwise I value my independence). But once I am married and stuck there (since I believe divorce is a sin), might as well reap various small benefits, including sex.

Still, though, the question raised in OP remains. In the link I gave in OP they mentioned the man getting rejected because he "hasn't shown" he wants sex. So logically the problem is that the woman assumes he doesn't want sex, and just lies. Yet when the question is raised "why is he lying", the answer is "to get sex". So its like the woman is saying "no he doesn't want sex, he just lies in order to get sex". But you see how it is a logical contradiction? You can't lie to get something you don't want.



QFT
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07 Jun 2022, 2:40 pm

Fnord wrote:
Dude, you are over-analyzing again.  Just accept the fact that some people say one thing, mean another, and do something completely different; avoid those that do; and get on with your life -- simple, huh?


The problem is that I am accused of being one of those people. Not John's version of it (due to no sex part) but the logical contradiction bit is very similar.

Now, it is frustrating enough when people don't believe me. But when they accuse me of something illogical, that is a whole new level of frustration. So I want to find logic in the logical contradictions that people accuse me of.



Fnord
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07 Jun 2022, 2:45 pm

QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Dude, you are over-analyzing again.  Just accept the fact that some people say one thing, mean another, and do something completely different; avoid those that do; and get on with your life -- simple, huh?
The problem is that I am accused of being one of those people. Not John's version of it (due to no sex part) but the logical contradiction bit is very similar.

Now, it is frustrating enough when people don't believe me. But when they accuse me of something illogical, that is a whole new level of frustration. So I want to find logic in the logical contradictions that people accuse me of.
Did they give any specific examples of this alleged two-faced behavior?



QFT
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07 Jun 2022, 9:37 pm

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Dude, you are over-analyzing again.  Just accept the fact that some people say one thing, mean another, and do something completely different; avoid those that do; and get on with your life -- simple, huh?
The problem is that I am accused of being one of those people. Not John's version of it (due to no sex part) but the logical contradiction bit is very similar.

Now, it is frustrating enough when people don't believe me. But when they accuse me of something illogical, that is a whole new level of frustration. So I want to find logic in the logical contradictions that people accuse me of.
Did they give any specific examples of this alleged two-faced behavior?


Here are some:

a) Talking about myself instead of asking the girl questions about her

b)Talking about ex’s

c) Being overly logical which in their minds suggests I don’t have emotion. But I keep saying yes I do have emotions in fact emotions is one thing that drives me to over analyze. They don’t seem to get it.

d) Having monotone voice that makes it seem like I have no emotions

e) Not saying things like “nice to see you” or “thank you”

f) Not smiling

g) Not recognizing people when I meet them walking down the street. For example I talked on Facebook to some girl for few weeks, only as friends. Then I got a Facebook message from her that she waved at me and I didn’t respond. I kept explaining to her how I do want to talk to her I just don’t recognize faces. But she wasn’t responding to my explanations.

h) I displayed my anger towards one girl, call her N-girl, in the end of October in front of a certain guy. Then, in the end of November, I asked that guy whether I missed an opportunity with a different girl, call her A girl, because I didn’t reciprocate her emotions all the way back in August. His response was that if I have so much hesitation I should question my own intentions of having a woman in my life. Then I asked him what would be an example of bad intention, and he said it could be an intention to treat a woman with anger. Then I kept pestering him with the following question. Yes I can get angry in response to various things (such as what he saw in October) but how can anger possibly be the actual purpose of wanting a relationship? Anger doesn’t feel good so how can anyone possibly want a relationship just to practice anger on someone. He never answered that question. He also never answered how can questioning my own intentions possibly be logical. After all, I innately know my own intentions, since I am me. It is only logical to question the other persons intentions but not my own.



klanka
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08 Jun 2022, 8:06 am

I got punished by god for not having sex outside of marriage when it was offered. This is because when the non-jews had to be given salvation there were two options

1.make them stop eating pork according to God's law
2.change God's law

God decided on no.2 so he has a pattern of changing his law to suit circumstances.

When Jesus healed the man who couldn't walk he told him to pick up his mat on the Sabbath. So the Pharisees got mad at Jesus for apparently breaking God's law...but because circumstances made it common sense for the man to take his mat home immediately he was allowed to. Its similar the shew bread incident when David ate the forbidden bread.
Just because he was hungry.

Now God isn't stupid so he wouldn't make you a man with sexual urges without allowing you to have sex with a woman. So basically the really strict stuff in Matthew is if you want to gain salvation by your own works. The strict commands in Matthew are those which Jesus himself had to follow to get salvation for us.

These terrible things that happened to you when you were trying to be pure were punishments from God for being righteous in your own eyes (job32:1)

If you look at the old testament its actually quite sexy , Judah slept with a prostitute and received no punishment whatsoever. except a slight bit of humiliation because he was being a hypocrite about it.

The man in Corinthians who was regularly having sex with his father's wife? He just got kicked out of the church temporarily!
It is usually autistic Christians who are hard on themselves or others. Its because we see things in absolutes. NT Christians do things that used to shock me, because they seemed to regularly go against the bible. If you go off the strict interpretation of the bible then its only about five autistic Christians who are going to heaven and most NTs are hellbound... which isn't true.



Last edited by klanka on 08 Jun 2022, 8:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

Fnord
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08 Jun 2022, 8:17 am

QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Dude, you are over-analyzing again.  Just accept the fact that some people say one thing, mean another, and do something completely different; avoid those that do; and get on with your life -- simple, huh?
The problem is that I am accused of being one of those people. Not John's version of it (due to no sex part) but the logical contradiction bit is very similar.

Now, it is frustrating enough when people don't believe me. But when they accuse me of something illogical, that is a whole new level of frustration. So I want to find logic in the logical contradictions that people accuse me of.
Did they give any specific examples of this alleged two-faced behavior?
Here are some:

a) Talking about myself instead of asking the girl questions about her

b)Talking about ex’s

c) Being overly logical which in their minds suggests I don’t have emotion. But I keep saying yes I do have emotions in fact emotions is one thing that drives me to over analyze. They don’t seem to get it.

d) Having monotone voice that makes it seem like I have no emotions

e) Not saying things like “nice to see you” or “thank you”

f) Not smiling

g) Not recognizing people when I meet them walking down the street. For example I talked on Facebook to some girl for few weeks, only as friends. Then I got a Facebook message from her that she waved at me and I didn’t respond. I kept explaining to her how I do want to talk to her I just don’t recognize faces. But she wasn’t responding to my explanations.

h) I displayed my anger towards one girl, call her N-girl, in the end of October in front of a certain guy. Then, in the end of November, I asked that guy whether I missed an opportunity with a different girl, call her A girl, because I didn’t reciprocate her emotions all the way back in August. His response was that if I have so much hesitation I should question my own intentions of having a woman in my life. Then I asked him what would be an example of bad intention, and he said it could be an intention to treat a woman with anger. Then I kept pestering him with the following question. Yes I can get angry in response to various things (such as what he saw in October) but how can anger possibly be the actual purpose of wanting a relationship? Anger doesn’t feel good so how can anyone possibly want a relationship just to practice anger on someone. He never answered that question. He also never answered how can questioning my own intentions possibly be logical. After all, I innately know my own intentions, since I am me. It is only logical to question the other persons intentions but not my own.
This behavior seems more creepy than two-faced.  You have likely been "creep-zoned".



QFT
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08 Jun 2022, 9:00 am

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Dude, you are over-analyzing again.  Just accept the fact that some people say one thing, mean another, and do something completely different; avoid those that do; and get on with your life -- simple, huh?
The problem is that I am accused of being one of those people. Not John's version of it (due to no sex part) but the logical contradiction bit is very similar.

Now, it is frustrating enough when people don't believe me. But when they accuse me of something illogical, that is a whole new level of frustration. So I want to find logic in the logical contradictions that people accuse me of.
Did they give any specific examples of this alleged two-faced behavior?
Here are some:

a) Talking about myself instead of asking the girl questions about her

b)Talking about ex’s

c) Being overly logical which in their minds suggests I don’t have emotion. But I keep saying yes I do have emotions in fact emotions is one thing that drives me to over analyze. They don’t seem to get it.

d) Having monotone voice that makes it seem like I have no emotions

e) Not saying things like “nice to see you” or “thank you”

f) Not smiling

g) Not recognizing people when I meet them walking down the street. For example I talked on Facebook to some girl for few weeks, only as friends. Then I got a Facebook message from her that she waved at me and I didn’t respond. I kept explaining to her how I do want to talk to her I just don’t recognize faces. But she wasn’t responding to my explanations.

h) I displayed my anger towards one girl, call her N-girl, in the end of October in front of a certain guy. Then, in the end of November, I asked that guy whether I missed an opportunity with a different girl, call her A girl, because I didn’t reciprocate her emotions all the way back in August. His response was that if I have so much hesitation I should question my own intentions of having a woman in my life. Then I asked him what would be an example of bad intention, and he said it could be an intention to treat a woman with anger. Then I kept pestering him with the following question. Yes I can get angry in response to various things (such as what he saw in October) but how can anger possibly be the actual purpose of wanting a relationship? Anger doesn’t feel good so how can anyone possibly want a relationship just to practice anger on someone. He never answered that question. He also never answered how can questioning my own intentions possibly be logical. After all, I innately know my own intentions, since I am me. It is only logical to question the other persons intentions but not my own.
This behavior seems more creepy than two-faced.  You have likely been "creep-zoned".


I noticed I was treated as creepy, especially by strangers, but I was always puzzled as to why.

So why do you think those behaviors are creepy? I mean, I weren’t making sexual comments nor do I have any intention to either stalk or grope anyone. What made it seem as if I would?



Fnord
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08 Jun 2022, 9:19 am

QFT wrote:
I noticed I was treated as creepy, especially by strangers, but I was always puzzled as to why.
Well, now you know.
QFT wrote:
So why do you think those behaviors are creepy?
Because they resemble the same behaviors displayed by sociopaths.
QFT wrote:
I mean, I weren’t making sexual comments
Actions speak louder than words -- if you act like a stalker, people will think you are a stalker.
QFT wrote:
nor do I have any intention to either stalk or grope anyone. What made it seem as if I would?
Intentions are irrelevant.  Again, if you act like a stalker, people will think you are a stalker.

Why?  Human nature.  Most people (especially women) will see certain behaviors as signs of a potential threat.

Change your behavior and people will eventually change their opinions of you.



QFT
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08 Jun 2022, 9:24 am

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
I noticed I was treated as creepy, especially by strangers, but I was always puzzled as to why.
Well, now you know.
QFT wrote:
So why do you think those behaviors are creepy?
Because they resemble the same behaviors displayed by sociopaths.
QFT wrote:
I mean, I weren’t making sexual comments
Actions speak louder than words -- if you act like a stalker, people will think you are a stalker.
QFT wrote:
nor do I have any intention to either stalk or grope anyone. What made it seem as if I would?
Intentions are irrelevant.  Again, if you act like a stalker, people will think you are a stalker.

Why?  Human nature.  Most people (especially women) will see certain behaviors as signs of a potential threat.

Change your behavior and people will eventually change their opinions of you.


And why do those behaviors imply stalking? Particularly d,e,f,g. Those items look like lack of interest. Stalking is an excessive interest. So why would these two opposites go together? This is another logical fallacy I am bothered by.

As far as d, I have no control over my voice. So it’s unfair to be judged by something I have no control of.



Fnord
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08 Jun 2022, 9:29 am

QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
I noticed I was treated as creepy, especially by strangers, but I was always puzzled as to why.
Well, now you know.
QFT wrote:
So why do you think those behaviors are creepy?
Because they resemble the same behaviors displayed by sociopaths.
QFT wrote:
I mean, I weren’t making sexual comments
Actions speak louder than words -- if you act like a stalker, people will think you are a stalker.
QFT wrote:
nor do I have any intention to either stalk or grope anyone. What made it seem as if I would?
Intentions are irrelevant.  Again, if you act like a stalker, people will think you are a stalker.

Why?  Human nature.  Most people (especially women) will see certain behaviors as signs of a potential threat.

Change your behavior and people will eventually change their opinions of you.
And why do those behaviors imply stalking?
Why do you persist in over-analyzing?  Unless you are a neurobiologist, you are unlikely to know and understand the exact mechanisms -- that have evolved in apes and humans over millions of years -- by which apes and humans have come to perceive threats from behavior.

Just accept the fact that your appearance and behavior determine how people perceive you, and do something about it!



Last edited by Fnord on 08 Jun 2022, 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

QFT
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08 Jun 2022, 9:32 am

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
I noticed I was treated as creepy, especially by strangers, but I was always puzzled as to why.
Well, now you know.
QFT wrote:
So why do you think those behaviors are creepy?
Because they resemble the same behaviors displayed by sociopaths.
QFT wrote:
I mean, I weren’t making sexual comments
Actions speak louder than words -- if you act like a stalker, people will think you are a stalker.
QFT wrote:
nor do I have any intention to either stalk or grope anyone. What made it seem as if I would?
Intentions are irrelevant.  Again, if you act like a stalker, people will think you are a stalker.

Why?  Human nature.  Most people (especially women) will see certain behaviors as signs of a potential threat.

Change your behavior and people will eventually change their opinions of you.
And why do those behaviors imply stalking?
Why do you persist in over-analyzing?  Unless you are a neurobiologist, you are unlikely to know and understand the exact mechanisms that have evolved in apes and humans over millions of years by which apes and humans have come to perceive threats from behavior.

Just accept the fact that your appearance and behavior determine how people perceive you, and do something about it!


I wasn’t saying stalkers have this little detail different from mine. I was talking about the fact that I don’t see any relationship to stalkers altogether. What does aloofness have to do with stalking? Simple question.

And as far as accepting, should I accept to be taken as a creep for the rest of my life? I can’t do anything about monotone voice.



Fnord
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08 Jun 2022, 9:39 am

QFT wrote:
I wasn’t saying stalkers have this little detail different from mine. I was talking about the fact that I don’t see any relationship to stalkers altogether.
You do not; but they may, and that is what matters here.
QFT wrote:
What does aloofness have to do with stalking?
By itself, not much; but when couple with other behaviors, it may seem purposely faked.
QFT wrote:
And as far as accepting, should I accept to be taken as a creep for the rest of my life?
I suggest you look at those behaviors of yours and change the ones that may be holding you back.
QFT wrote:
I can’t do anything about monotone voice.
I used to believe that about myself, too.  Now I sing in the choir, and often read Scriptures in church.  People have complimented me on the inflections in my voice, and how the readings seem to "come alive" for them.  You CAN change, as long as you put forth the effort -- it is much easier than waiting for the world to change just for you.