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US Presidential Hopeful wants to bomb Mecca

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Doc_Daneeka
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09 Aug 2007, 5:50 pm

Macbeth wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
http://www.britishcouncil.org/learnenglish-central-history-mecca-deaths.htm

Who needs to attack mecca? Sees that they kill enough of their own without a westerner in sight.

I also saw quoted somewhere that, in various jihad based activities over the past 30 years or so, islam has totted up a 4000 to 1 kill ratio. Thats 4000 Muslims killed for every westerner. (Specifically killed BY muslims that is. Thinking on it, it might even have been 40,000.. cant rightly rememeber.)

Taking that into account, it looks like the greatest threat to islam is not nuke-happy american politicos at all, nor the conventional militaries of the west, but islam itself.


I'll get back to you after I total up all the people in the world ever killed in the name of Christianity. . .it might be a while. . .


Well if we're working on a comparative total, dont forget that a) its christians killing christians, not everyone else, and b) christianity is the older of the two, and that its been a while since the last war declared in the name of christ. In fact I'm reasonably sure that there hasnt been a mass killing of christians by christians in the name of christ since the Cathar heresy, barring the odd witch (and those were supposed to be non-christians anyway.) Also, this figure is theoretically representative of religious-based killing, and not generic warfare where both sides happen to be of a broadly similar religion. (So that precludes both world wars for a start, in the same way that my total ignores the iran/iraq conflict)


Yes, it's much less common now to see Christians going 'to war' against other Christians since the Albigensian Crusade. It's hardly unheard of, however. The 30 Years War comes to mind. If you just want to talk about current events, ask a Ugandan about it. They have been dealing with fundamentalist Christians at war with the government in order to create a state based on the 10 commandments. Surely that counts?



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09 Aug 2007, 7:56 pm

Doc_Daneeka wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
http://www.britishcouncil.org/learnenglish-central-history-mecca-deaths.htm

Who needs to attack mecca? Sees that they kill enough of their own without a westerner in sight.

I also saw quoted somewhere that, in various jihad based activities over the past 30 years or so, islam has totted up a 4000 to 1 kill ratio. Thats 4000 Muslims killed for every westerner. (Specifically killed BY muslims that is. Thinking on it, it might even have been 40,000.. cant rightly rememeber.)

Taking that into account, it looks like the greatest threat to islam is not nuke-happy american politicos at all, nor the conventional militaries of the west, but islam itself.


I'll get back to you after I total up all the people in the world ever killed in the name of Christianity. . .it might be a while. . .


Well if we're working on a comparative total, dont forget that a) its christians killing christians, not everyone else, and b) christianity is the older of the two, and that its been a while since the last war declared in the name of christ. In fact I'm reasonably sure that there hasnt been a mass killing of christians by christians in the name of christ since the Cathar heresy, barring the odd witch (and those were supposed to be non-christians anyway.) Also, this figure is theoretically representative of religious-based killing, and not generic warfare where both sides happen to be of a broadly similar religion. (So that precludes both world wars for a start, in the same way that my total ignores the iran/iraq conflict)


Yes, it's much less common now to see Christians going 'to war' against other Christians since the Albigensian Crusade. It's hardly unheard of, however. The 30 Years War comes to mind. If you just want to talk about current events, ask a Ugandan about it. They have been dealing with fundamentalist Christians at war with the government in order to create a state based on the 10 commandments. Surely that counts?


Heh, Islam isn't alone in its idiocy and inability to pay attention to scripture. The paradox of "thou shalt not kill" vs "lets have a war." Fundamentalists of any nature are usually bad news for everyone (stress on the mentalist part i think) but Christian crusade-style warfare is much less prevalent in general.


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09 Aug 2007, 8:08 pm

Macbeth wrote:
Heh, Islam isn't alone in its idiocy and inability to pay attention to scripture. The paradox of "thou shalt not kill" vs "lets have a war." Fundamentalists of any nature are usually bad news for everyone (stress on the mentalist part i think) but Christian crusade-style warfare is much less prevalent in general.


Well, the West has happened to reach a point where killing is done for other reasons. I can't honestly see why killing people over idiotic notions of Aryan supremacy or whatnot is different from killing people for religious reasons. Wow. We in the west tend to anihilate other people for reasons other than religion. We're so advanced. Yay for us.

Seriously though, my view is that ideology itself is the root cause of the problem. It can manifest as religion, or it can manifest as political belief, or racial ideology, etc etc etc. There really isn't much to choose between these forms of ideology. Religion is a subset of the general problem The general problem is represented by the True Believer of any stripe.



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09 Aug 2007, 8:13 pm

Doc_Daneeka wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Heh, Islam isn't alone in its idiocy and inability to pay attention to scripture. The paradox of "thou shalt not kill" vs "lets have a war." Fundamentalists of any nature are usually bad news for everyone (stress on the mentalist part i think) but Christian crusade-style warfare is much less prevalent in general.


Well, the West has happened to reach a point where killing is done for other reasons. I can't honestly see why killing people over idiotic notions of Aryan supremacy or whatnot is different from killing people for religious reasons. Wow. We in the west tend to anihilate other people for reasons other than religion. We're so advanced. Yay for us.

Seriously though, my view is that ideology itself is the root cause of the problem. It can manifest as religion, or it can manifest as political belief, or racial ideology, etc etc etc. There really isn't much to choose between these forms of ideology. Religion is a subset of the general problem The general problem is represented by the True Believer of any stripe.


Granted. However, the west in general isnt trying to kill me or mine over vague religious points I couldn't give a damn about. (Well, except for that IRA thing, but then I disliked them just as much, regardless of if they had a point or not.)


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09 Aug 2007, 8:22 pm

Macbeth wrote:
Granted. However, the west in general isnt trying to kill me or mine over vague religious points I couldn't give a damn about. (Well, except for that IRA thing, but then I disliked them just as much, regardless of if they had a point or not.)


Oh. Are Muslims in general trying to kill you? That strikes me as being something akin to paranoia.



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09 Aug 2007, 8:31 pm

Doc_Daneeka wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Granted. However, the west in general isnt trying to kill me or mine over vague religious points I couldn't give a damn about. (Well, except for that IRA thing, but then I disliked them just as much, regardless of if they had a point or not.)


Oh. Are Muslims in general trying to kill you? That strikes me as being something akin to paranoia.


LOL no, not specifically ME per se. However, both they and the IRA have come close to it, and generally increased my likelihood of being killed by them, not to mention the amount of extra hassle they have caused by their actions that have either a direct or indirect effect on my life, or the lives of those around me.

(Though tbh, given my Apostasic views on their religion, I'm sure they wouldn't mind having a go directly.)


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09 Aug 2007, 8:41 pm

Macbeth wrote:
Doc_Daneeka wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Granted. However, the west in general isnt trying to kill me or mine over vague religious points I couldn't give a damn about. (Well, except for that IRA thing, but then I disliked them just as much, regardless of if they had a point or not.)


Oh. Are Muslims in general trying to kill you? That strikes me as being something akin to paranoia.


LOL no, not specifically ME per se. However, both they and the IRA have come close to it, and generally increased my likelihood of being killed by them, not to mention the amount of extra hassle they have caused by their actions that have either a direct or indirect effect on my life, or the lives of those around me.

(Though tbh, given my Apostasic views on their religion, I'm sure they wouldn't mind having a go directly.)


For what it's worth, I have no truck with any religion whatsoever. However, I find it rather odd that you seem to equate 'Muslims' with 'those who are blowing things up'. Did you equate 'the (Catholic) Irish' with 'the IRA' 15 years ago? I'm just curious.



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09 Aug 2007, 8:50 pm

Doc_Daneeka wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Doc_Daneeka wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Granted. However, the west in general isnt trying to kill me or mine over vague religious points I couldn't give a damn about. (Well, except for that IRA thing, but then I disliked them just as much, regardless of if they had a point or not.)


Oh. Are Muslims in general trying to kill you? That strikes me as being something akin to paranoia.


LOL no, not specifically ME per se. However, both they and the IRA have come close to it, and generally increased my likelihood of being killed by them, not to mention the amount of extra hassle they have caused by their actions that have either a direct or indirect effect on my life, or the lives of those around me.

(Though tbh, given my Apostasic views on their religion, I'm sure they wouldn't mind having a go directly.)




For what it's worth, I have no truck with any religion whatsoever. However, I find it rather odd that you seem to equate 'Muslims' with 'those who are blowing things up'. Did you equate 'the (Catholic) Irish' with 'the IRA' 15 years ago? I'm just curious.


No.. within the context of this conversation, I use "muslim" to refer to specific islamic extremist groups, rather than the whole. Mostly because its quicker to write. I do have various issues with the religion as a whole, but these are academic. Same with the IRA.. I speak specifically of the terrorist factions, rather than the everyday irish folk. (It would be daft of me to hate catholics or the irish, as i married a catholic, my partner is catholic, and i have irish ancestors.)

Generally I just dont like people who want to kill "me".


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09 Aug 2007, 9:12 pm

Macbeth wrote:
Generally I just dont like people who want to kill "me".


Amen.


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10 Aug 2007, 12:23 am

http://moonflake.wordpress.com/2007/08/ ... d-by-gays/

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That odious weasel Fred Phelps and his gang of miscreants are planning to protest at the funerals of the people killed when the 35W bridge collapsed recently in the US.



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10 Aug 2007, 6:35 am

'Odious weasel'? That is the most elegant understatement I've heard in the last few days.


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10 Aug 2007, 8:35 am

I'm sure I read somewhere that the IRA helped train some Islamic terrorists. Far as I'm concerned, terrorism is never justified.


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10 Aug 2007, 8:48 am

Pandora wrote:
I'm sure I read somewhere that the IRA helped train some Islamic terrorists. Far as I'm concerned, terrorism is never justified.


Its highly likely. After all, both the IRA and Mujahadeen (sp?) were funding and/or trained by America, so it wouldnt surprise me if they cross-trained to some degree or another.


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10 Aug 2007, 8:56 am

Macbeth wrote:
No.. within the context of this conversation, I use "muslim" to refer to specific islamic extremist groups


A bit like I use the term 'life-form' when referring to african elephants.



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10 Aug 2007, 9:33 am

camphortree wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
No.. within the context of this conversation, I use "muslim" to refer to specific islamic extremist groups


A bit like I use the term 'life-form' when referring to african elephants.


Nope, not really. Unless the context was about elephants, in which case I assume people would be able to make the logical leap. Even easier in this thread since I have specified "Islamic Extremists" several times, and even gone to the lengths of explaining my use of the term "muslim".

I notice no-one picked up on the "christian" reference, despite the fact that not all christians were witch-burning inquisitors. So its acceptable to use "christian" as a blanket term, but not "muslim" suddenly? Did I miss that memo?


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10 Aug 2007, 9:40 am

Macbeth wrote:
I notice no-one picked up on the "christian" reference, despite the fact that not all christians were witch-burning inquisitors. So its acceptable to use "christian" as a blanket term, but not "muslim" suddenly? Did I miss that memo?


Glad someone else sees the irony.

I got the memo, but found resistance to be futile. :P