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Matrix Glitch
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11 Jun 2022, 11:25 pm

I've lived by the sea going back nearly 30 years. High tide is at the same level it's always been.



r00tb33r
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11 Jun 2022, 11:43 pm

Well then, time for drastic measures then.

9 out of 10 of you must be killed off.



Matrix Glitch
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11 Jun 2022, 11:47 pm

First in line!



Sweetleaf
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11 Jun 2022, 11:52 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
I've lived by the sea going back nearly 30 years. High tide is at the same level it's always been.


Then why are beach front properties becoming so problematic, as in people buy them and the beach is wearing away because of rising water levels in the oceans.


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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12 Jun 2022, 1:49 am

Now, granted, the USN is part of the government and therefore probably part of the climate change conspiracy :wink: but ...

(and Dad retired at Norfolk, so maybe even I could be part of the climate change conspiracy ...)

DOD, Navy Confront Climate Change Challenges in Southern Virginia
July 21, 2021 | BY C. Todd Lopez , DOD News
https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stori ... -virginia/
"
Over the last 100 years, average sea level — as measured by a National Oceanic and Atmospheric Agency tide gauge that's been in place for a century at Naval Station Norfolk — has risen 18 inches. According to NOAA projections, it is expected to rise between 1-3 feet by 2050.

That increase in sea level, coupled with the typical rise and fall of the tide and seasonal weather events common to an oceanside community, poses a risk to the Navy's ability to conduct and support operations in the Atlantic.

"We are looking both on-base and off-base to help mitigate operational impacts to the mission," Brian P. Ballard, a community planning liaison officer with Navy Region Mid-Atlantic in Norfolk, said. "With flooding off-base, we want to make sure that we have access to the base from the roads. We don't control the roads, either local or state roads. We want to make sure that we have continuous access to our installations."

Utilities are also an off-base concern, Ballard said. The Hampton Roads area of Virginia has about two-dozen military facilities. About a quarter of those — including Naval Station Norfolk — are Navy facilities. And most utilities for those facilities come from the civilian community.

"As we work to improve our on-base infrastructure, we have to make sure that there's no flooding impact to our utility connections or off-base utilities," he said.
"
...

"
In 2019, he said, there were 14 days in Hampton Roads where high tides were a half a meter above the daily average high tide. According to NOAA, this is projected to increase up to 25 days by 2030 and to 65 days by 2050.
"

See also:

THE RESPONSE: How People Are Adapting
Norfolk: The Navy on the Leading Edge
Leslie Middleton, Bay Journal
October 2014
https://www.chesapeakequarterly.net/sealevel/main13/

"
Norfolk and the surrounding Hampton Roads area, which is home to 28 other defense installations, is experiencing one of the fastest rates of sea level rise in the United States because of the combined influences of rising seas and subsiding land.

Most of the station lies 13 feet or less above mean sea level. Some scenarios project that waters around Norfolk will rise by six feet or more in the next 100 years, and studies by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers show that 60 to 80 percent of the station could be flooded during storms the size of Hurricane Isabel in 2003.

But while numerous studies have shown that a smaller rise in sea level will inundate major portions of the naval base and other installations, the Navy has yet to make a comprehensive plan — nationally or locally — to deal with the challenge.

But not for want of critical attention.

The last two Defense Quadrennial Reviews (an in-depth examination of strategy) have pointed to the mounting threats to national security, abroad and in the United States, of the effects of climate change. The Navy has formed a climate change task force and is in the process, along with the other armed services, of evaluating the operational and installation vulnerabilities of facilities around the world. The Army Corps of Engineers' research arm developed sophisticated models for predicting sea level rise impacts, first looking at different scenarios at the Norfolk base and now using these methods at other defense installations.
"

Plus:

Come High Water
Sea Level Rise and
Chesapeake Bay
October 2014
vol. 13, no. 2 & 3
https://www.chesapeakequarterly.net/sealevel/index.php


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Sweetleaf
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12 Jun 2022, 2:00 am

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Now, granted, the USN is part of the government and therefore probably part of the climate change conspiracy :wink: but ...

(and Dad retired at Norfolk, so maybe even I could be part of the climate change conspiracy ...)

DOD, Navy Confront Climate Change Challenges in Southern Virginia
July 21, 2021 | BY C. Todd Lopez , DOD News
https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stori ... -virginia/
"
Over the last 100 years, average sea level — as measured by a National Oceanic and Atmospheric Agency tide gauge that's been in place for a century at Naval Station Norfolk — has risen 18 inches. According to NOAA projections, it is expected to rise between 1-3 feet by 2050.

That increase in sea level, coupled with the typical rise and fall of the tide and seasonal weather events common to an oceanside community, poses a risk to the Navy's ability to conduct and support operations in the Atlantic.

"We are looking both on-base and off-base to help mitigate operational impacts to the mission," Brian P. Ballard, a community planning liaison officer with Navy Region Mid-Atlantic in Norfolk, said. "With flooding off-base, we want to make sure that we have access to the base from the roads. We don't control the roads, either local or state roads. We want to make sure that we have continuous access to our installations."

Utilities are also an off-base concern, Ballard said. The Hampton Roads area of Virginia has about two-dozen military facilities. About a quarter of those — including Naval Station Norfolk — are Navy facilities. And most utilities for those facilities come from the civilian community.

"As we work to improve our on-base infrastructure, we have to make sure that there's no flooding impact to our utility connections or off-base utilities," he said.
"
...

"
In 2019, he said, there were 14 days in Hampton Roads where high tides were a half a meter above the daily average high tide. According to NOAA, this is projected to increase up to 25 days by 2030 and to 65 days by 2050.
"


I mean you'd think people might start denying climate change less, when even the navy is trying to find ways to combat rising water levels and/or adapt to them which they straight up say are caused by climate change. Like even a branch of the military has been concernedly watching the rising waters and are concerned. I mean not exactly a group you can accuse of being just navie college kids taking too many relaxed courses. like that is the navy even saying climate change is causing problems.


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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12 Jun 2022, 2:06 am

And a related issue which was mentioned in previous post,

As the Land Sinks
Around the Chesapeake Bay, sinking land is exacerbating the effects of sea level rise
Daniel Strain
https://www.chesapeakequarterly.net/sealevel/main2/
"
In Maryland and Virginia, a network of GPS stations, operated by the National Geodetic Survey, has tracked this shifting in the land for several decades. Based on this and other data, researchers estimate that land surfaces around the estuary are falling by around 1.5 millimeters each year because of the ongoing rebound from the last ice age. But some towns on the estuary seem to be sinking a lot faster: the number for the Hampton Roads area is closer to 4 millimeters each year on average.

"This question kept coming up of what was causing this land subsidence," says Whitney Katchmark. She heads up the Water Resources Department in the Hampton Roads Planning District Commission, which advises towns in the region.

The most obvious answer was groundwater withdrawal by municipal water utilities and other users.

To understand why, think of a jelly doughnut. Like the raspberry filling inside these morning treats, groundwater is stored in aquifers. That's the name for large formations of sand and clay that sit tens to hundreds of feet below the land surface. The Hampton Roads area gets its groundwater from the Potomac Aquifer, a formation that extends from North Carolina up into New Jersey. When you tap a well into one of these formations and draw out water continuously, it's a bit like removing the filling from your doughnut. Like with the pastry, if you remove too much water from an aquifer, the aquifer can collapse down on itself. When it does, the land above it will also begin to sag.

Researchers have observed this phenomenon in action across the country, most notably in the Houston-Galveston area of Texas. There, residents saw the land fall by as much as 10 feet during the course of the 20th century.
"


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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12 Jun 2022, 2:12 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
I mean you'd think people might start denying climate change less, when even the navy is trying to find ways to combat rising water levels and/or adapt to them which they straight up say are caused by climate change. Like even a branch of the military has been concernedly watching the rising waters and are concerned. I mean not exactly a group you can accuse of being just naive college kids taking too many relaxed courses. like that is the navy even saying climate change is causing problems.


When we lived in Virginia Beach, VA, in late 1970s early 1980s, while Dad was stationed at Norfolk and then at Little Creek Naval Amphibious base, our house was about 8 miles inland from the oceanfront & about 34 inches above sea level.

:arrow: And while I'm in the mood to post on the theme ...

Bay Bulletin
Naval Academy Plans for Possible New Seawall to Fight Sea Level Rise
May 10, 2021
https://chesapeakebaymagazine.com/naval ... evel-rise/
"
The U.S. Naval Academy’s famed seawall, an Annapolis waterfront landmark and popular tourist stroll, needs shoring up. Naval Support Activity Annapolis is making plans to repair and restore approximately 19,334 linear feet of the military installation’s seawall and shoreline along the Severn River, according to a U.S. Department of the Navy correspondence.

The projects would reinforce deteriorating structures and protect the larger campus from the threats of climate change, such as extreme weather events, sea level rise, storm surge, and land subsidence, according to an environmental assessment report.

Of the four proposed remedies, Navy officials preferred an option that would provide structural reinforcement against weather extremes, according to an April correspondence signed by the U.S. Navy Commandant, Rear Admiral Carl A. Lahti. The plan would fortify the grounds against 50-year and 75-year storms and 75-year predicted sea level rise.

Each subsequent recommendation provided less protection, and one option was to do nothing at all.

The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, in its most extreme modeling, predicts sea level rise could reach over 11 feet in Annapolis in the year 2100.

Since 1950, Maryland’s sea level has risen 10 inches. In Annapolis, the rate of sea level increase has sped up to one inch every five years, according to NOAA.
"

:arrow: US Naval Institute is an independent outfit which publishes what amounts to a trade journal for Navy people, titled Proceedings
I learned a lot reading Dad's when he was done with them.

The Navy’s Vanguard Against Rising Sea Levels
By Ensign Leah Gordon, Civil Engineer Corps, U.S. Navy
June 2020
Proceedings
Vol. 146/6/1,408
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedi ... sea-levels
"
To protect the operational readiness of the fleet, U.S. coastal bases must be prioritized and conserved. The Navy’s Civil Engineer Corps (CEC) has the capabilities to provide both military and engineering expertise to develop a comprehensive effort to combat rising seas. In addition, Seabees will have the ability to implement these efforts abroad and preserve the assets that allow the continued power projection of the Navy. The Navy must address rising seas more seriously, before they cause great damage to military installations. The Navy must take advantage of the CEC, which has the professionals with the can-do attitude to battle this problem.

The United States must protect strategic assets and focus on ensuring military readiness and security against climate change. Despite the political debate surrounding the issue, sea level rise is happening and is perhaps the most concerning effect of climate change. The National Ocean Service reported that in 2014 the sea level was 2.6 inches higher than in 1993.1 This caused flooding that is estimated to be 300–900 percent more frequent in U.S. coastal communities than it was just 50 years ago.2 A National Climate Assessment taken in 2014 predicted two scenarios for the rate of sea level rise: intermediate and highest. Intermediate assumes a moderate rate of ice-cap melting that predicts a rise of 3.7 feet globally by the year 2100. Highest assumes rapid loss and acceleration that predicts a rise of 6.3 feet.3 By the end of the century, the coast we now know will be habitable only by sea creatures, as it indisputably will be underwater. This affects coastal facilities and installations owned by the Department of Defense (DoD), not just civilian communities.
"


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12 Jun 2022, 3:52 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:
I've lived by the sea going back nearly 30 years. High tide is at the same level it's always been.


I have for 50 years and whilst the sands are changing and have chqnged a fair bit (Which was expected) apart from the odd storm which can give the shores a hammering, the basic sea levels have stayed the same. There is a town near here where about a quarter of it was built below sea level and yet it still remains there with no problems. The Victorian engineers were great at what they did. They put in a series of one way flood defenses to make themselves land to use. Here is one of the two places in the world that has the greatest distance between the highest and lowest tides., so when the tide goes out, it goes right out and vice versa. They used this to their advantage to keep the land they reclaimed dry. Then the town was built upon it. No one dared build there before because it was hit by a few tsunamis in the past which repeated around every 400 years though the odd one hit at 200 year interval compared to the usual 400. The last tsunami was in 1607 (Or 1609?) and a great many people living in the coastal areas of South Wales and England lost their lives, though what saved many peoples lives was the fact in those days, many people lived inland due to the tsunami past and due to the African pirate slave traders who would take people from the UK and European shores.
My local village has houses where there are water marks just beliow first floor ceiling level where the tsunami hit, and it left a series of inland sand dunes when the water went back out which were not there before. Where I lived in the village, if we dug down about 8 to 12 ft, there was a thick band of sea shells deposited there after the tsunami.

But as to general sea levels, if anything it has receeded slightly rather than got any higher.

Someone mentioned the Norfolk (Along with Dover) area. This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with sea level rises. That area is built on chalk and once was joined with Europe. That has been erroding for years simply because the rocks and the chalk can't cope with the sea errosion. The other side of the UK has had more land given to it by the sea. Where I live, if I look at maps dating back to the late 1800's, the tide line is about half a mile further back and our beach is an extra few miles longer. This is natural. The tideline has receeded a lot which is evidence that global warming causing the sea levels to rise is total garbage.



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12 Jun 2022, 5:53 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
So what is the alternative explanation?


The favourite theory from the climate deniers is that this is a natural cycle and that it will dissipate and we'll all sit around laughing at the wokes over a beer in a few years.



Matrix Glitch
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12 Jun 2022, 10:07 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
I've lived by the sea going back nearly 30 years. High tide is at the same level it's always been.


Then why are beach front properties becoming so problematic, as in people buy them and the beach is wearing away because of rising water levels in the oceans.


I don't know because I haven't been there and seen that. I just know when I'm out on a long pier, the water level at high tide is the same as it's always been. Unless there's a storm. Then the waves can get pretty high. Puts driftwood pretty far up the beach. Not that that has changed any either.



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12 Jun 2022, 10:19 am

Mountain Goat wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
I've lived by the sea going back nearly 30 years. High tide is at the same level it's always been.


I have for 50 years and whilst the sands are changing and have chqnged a fair bit (Which was expected) apart from the odd storm which can give the shores a hammering, the basic sea levels have stayed the same. There is a town near here where about a quarter of it was built below sea level and yet it still remains there with no problems. The Victorian engineers were great at what they did. They put in a series of one way flood defenses to make themselves land to use. Here is one of the two places in the world that has the greatest distance between the highest and lowest tides., so when the tide goes out, it goes right out and vice versa. They used this to their advantage to keep the land they reclaimed dry. Then the town was built upon it. No one dared build there before because it was hit by a few tsunamis in the past which repeated around every 400 years though the odd one hit at 200 year interval compared to the usual 400. The last tsunami was in 1607 (Or 1609?) and a great many people living in the coastal areas of South Wales and England lost their lives, though what saved many peoples lives was the fact in those days, many people lived inland due to the tsunami past and due to the African pirate slave traders who would take people from the UK and European shores.
My local village has houses where there are water marks just beliow first floor ceiling level where the tsunami hit, and it left a series of inland sand dunes when the water went back out which were not there before. Where I lived in the village, if we dug down about 8 to 12 ft, there was a thick band of sea shells deposited there after the tsunami.

But as to general sea levels, if anything it has receeded slightly rather than got any higher.

Someone mentioned the Norfolk (Along with Dover) area. This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with sea level rises. That area is built on chalk and once was joined with Europe. That has been erroding for years simply because the rocks and the chalk can't cope with the sea errosion. The other side of the UK has had more land given to it by the sea. Where I live, if I look at maps dating back to the late 1800's, the tide line is about half a mile further back and our beach is an extra few miles longer. This is natural. The tideline has receeded a lot which is evidence that global warming causing the sea levels to rise is total garbage.


In the 1890s where I'm at they dredged a channel or something and used all the sand to build a long thin "island". The land is barely above sea level. Yet it hasn't gone under.

Image



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12 Jun 2022, 12:42 pm

Maybe it’s just worse in some areas.
https://247wallst.com/special-report/20 ... etime/amp/


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12 Jun 2022, 1:41 pm

Hmmm…. Rising waters ??? Now what shooting excess water out into outer space for disposal ??? :roll:


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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12 Jun 2022, 2:09 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Maybe it’s just worse in some areas.


That brings to mind,

Are sea levels rising the same all over the world, as if we're filling a giant bathtub?
No. Sea level rise is uneven, the two main reasons being ocean dynamics and Earth’s uneven gravity field.
https://sealevel.nasa.gov/faq/9/are-sea ... t-bathtub/


Is sea level the same all across the ocean?
The sea level varies around the globe.
https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/globalsl.html
"
Most people are surprised to learn that, just as the surface of the Earth is not flat, the surface of the ocean is not flat, and that the surface of the sea changes at different rates around the globe. For instance, the absolute water level height is higher along the West Coast of the United States than the East Coast.
"

Oceans aren't rising everywhere — in some places they're actually falling
Sarah Kramer
Apr 25, 2016, 1:56 PM
https://www.businessinsider.com/why-sea ... ual-2016-4


Why Our Intuition About Sea-Level Rise Is Wrong
A geologist explains that climate change is not just about a global average sea rise.
By Daniel Grossman
February 9, 2016
https://nautil.us/why-our-intuition-abo ... g-rp-7522/
"
What happens when a big glacier like the Greenland Ice Sheet melts?

Three things happen. One is that you’re dumping all of this melt water into the ocean. So the mass of the entire ocean would definitely be going up if ice sheets were melting—as they are today. The second thing that happens is that this gravitational attraction that the ice sheet exerts on the surrounding water diminishes. As a consequence, water migrates away from the ice sheet. The third thing is, as the ice sheet melts, the land underneath the ice sheet pops up; it rebounds.

So what is the combined impact of the ice-sheet melt, water flow, and diminished gravity?

Gravity has a very strong effect. So what happens when an ice sheet melts is sea level falls in the vicinity of the melting ice sheet. That is counterintuitive. The question is, how far from the ice sheet do you have to go before the effects of diminished gravity and uplifting crust are small enough that you start to raise sea level? That’s also counterintuitive. It’s 2,000 kilometers away from the ice sheet. So if the Greenland ice sheet were to catastrophically collapse tomorrow, the sea level in Iceland, Newfoundland, Sweden, Norway—all within this 2,000 kilometer radius of the Greenland ice sheet—would fall. It might have a 30 to 50 meter drop at the shore of Greenland. But the farther you get away from Greenland, the greater the price you pay. If the Greenland ice sheet melts, sea level in most of the Southern Hemisphere will increase about 30 percent more than the global average. So this is no small effect.
"


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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12 Jun 2022, 2:19 pm

Ahh yes, climate, nature, people, politics, and human nature, what a mix ...

"
“No matter what we did, the water came through the village,” Botu said of repeated attempts to hold back the sea and the estuary snaking through the village, with makeshift walls. Sea water intrusion disrupted agriculture and the cultivation of coconut, breadfruit and banana trees.

After years of planning, the entire village of 150 people moved to New Vunidogoloa, about 1.5km inland on a hillside owned by the villagers. The new village comprises thirty-three new one-storey wooden homes, painted light blue.

The new village is widely hailed as a successful project since it opened in 2014, despite grumblings on both sides. The villagers accuse the government of failing to keep promises, while politicians who championed the project complain about ingratitude.
"

The Great Melt: This village in Fiji has been forced to move inland as sea levels rise
By Alister Doyle • Updated: 21/10/2021
https://www.euronews.com/green/2021/10/ ... evels-rise


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