Japan has a Ministry for Loneliness

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A wise fellow autist told me once that it's essential to remember two things about NTs:

1. They are obsessed with hierarchy, jockeying for their position in the pecking order, and will treat you according to where they think your position is in that system. (as people mentioned above)

2. They are obsessed with covering up their mistakes. They will do anything to cover them up, pretend they did the right thing, pass the blame etc.

Whereas autists don't care about their position in any hierarchy, and generally freely admit they made a mistake, because we are used to making mistakes and don't care. These traits completely fox NTs, they are so busy looking for ulterior motives in our behaviour but we don't have any. (At least not ulterior motives they understand. My ulterior motive is feeling comfortable and my physical needs met i.e. food, water, not getting too hot or cold etc.)

All the above has helped me understand NTs so much better.

yep agreed

There is some nuance to this approach but its roughly about correct.

Does having these characteristics really depend on being NT/ND? This irresponsible assertion is hatred of NT.

I would say that anyone who thinks they are different in some way, whether they are NT/ND, often claim so, whether it actually does describe themselves at the same time.

---

It's Worth Noting That in The Rain Forests of South America
Tribes of Humans Living In Harmony With Nature Cooperating;
Yep, Giving, Caring, Sharing, Healing Overall Loving Each Other

And Nature This Way
Similar to Some American
Indian Tribes When of Course
There Were No Intertribal Wars;

Yet In South American Rain Forests
There Are Also Cannibalistic Tribes As Well

Who Are Very Competitive And Seek to Eat Human Flesh to Survive...

So What's The Difference; We Are All Human; Aren't People Alike ALL Over;

Well No, CuLTuRE Makes the Difference Between Bringing Out Heaven to HeLL ON EartH;

Being Eaten By
Other Humans
is a Pretty Good
Description of Hell;
Eaten Alive, Even More So
of Course Yet This is What Humans

At War Do
When Inhaling
Peace Exhaling
Love is Not of THeir
Communal Brew; for Example,

In the News An American So-Called
Conservative Republican Running For Office
After Domestic Abuse Promotes Hunting Down
Folks in His Same So-Called Party, He Doesn't Agree

(In Intra-tribal Wars As Such, Really Sad it Is)

With, With No Limits of Killing, Bagging, Tagging Them
AS Such NoW as "Deer Hunters" of Course Do in Vietnam
And Iraq No Matter if the Wars Are Actually Warranted Or Not;

CuLTuRaL
Bonding
And Binding
Over Truth and
Lies DarK And LiGHT NoW
Get The Vote Out to LiVE OR Die;

Indeed, CuLTuRE Will A ViRuS Deadly Be
to the 'Normal Human Condition' of Mostly
Homogenous Small Groups of Humans Giving, Sharing,
Caring, Healing iN JoY oF LiGHT; Yes, Loving Surviving Now

And Thriving A Forage/Hunt of the Day into A Moonlit Meditative
Flowing Free Dance Together Ascending the Neo Cortex Opening
Up an Additional Flow of Greater Creativity And Productivity For The Group Whole;

Where Additionally,
The Child is the Prize
of the Village As When Technology
Hasn't Replaced Humanity as Both Helping

Hands, More 'Hands on Deck' Are Required for Any
Potential to Thrive or Even Survive Now For Real

Then And Now too;

Except Technology
Has Replaced Much
of the All Hands Effort

And Folks Are Separated
By "Machine Life" and Even
"Mechanical Cognition" To Run
The Machine Nature of Modern Societies

To Keep it Well Oiled No Matter if Humans
Get Lost in the Machine and Frigging Living Die...

Studies Show College Age Students Are Depressed to
the Point of Difficulty in Functioning in Life at rates of 40 Percent
And 60 Percent Per Anxiety That Impacts Life Functioning As Well

And Even Suicidal Ideation At Rates of 10 Percent, Alarming Indeed

As It Appears 'Houston' Is Finally Determining We have a Problem With
'Human Rocket Science'

In Other Words,

Mechanical Cognition
Isn't Particularly 'Human'
For All the 'STEM Majors' at
Yale of Course too As it Surely

Doesn't Wire Humans in Terms of
Social-Empathic-Artistic-Real Spiritual
Emotional Intelligences as Such Yet at Least

When i was in College There Were Actual Posted
Warnings on Doors of Engineering Classes And Computer

Labs to Get Out of the Lab and Class And Do Some Human

too as that
is surely
A Skill
Per Use it
or Lose it that
May Escape Our
Particular Existences too;

Yet Now We LiVE iN A 'Zuckerberg

(The 'Revenge of the Nerds' Come to Pass)

World' What Reference Point is there to Before

Now; What Face to Face Communication That Actually
Smells, Tastes, And Touches too in Terms of Hugs Real Now;

Yes, Hugs
Now for
Real For
Those Who
Enjoy a Warm
Oxytocin Connection
of Humanity Now Still

What Drives Human Altruism
At Core And Cooperation Over
Competition Enough For Collaboration

To Actually LiVE iN Peace And Harmony
Without even Any Coca-Cola For A Quick

Hit of Dopamine Producing Sugar And Caffeine of Course;

True, oh Where, oh Where Has the Natural Anxiety Reducing,
And Actual Pain Healing, and Actual Loving Bonding and Binding
Neurohormone Oxytocin Gone For Wiring Humans Warm And Fuzzy This Way;

Down the Hole
of Mechanical
Cognition at

Least in Part

As it's True

Folks May Do What
A Yale Course Suggests
They Do to Improve Happiness

For A While Nurturing Human Connections
to Enhance our Biology This Way Doing Gratitude
Lists and Perhaps Sitting Still Meditation Yet Where

Are the Moving
Connecting
Yes And yes
Co-Creating
Parts if We Just
Sit Still And Do
It With All Word Think

Still Stuck Between Ears,

Not Flowing All the Neurochemicals
And Neurohormones in a Feed-Back of
Real Free Dance Bio-Feedback to Soon Yes

(All From Head to Toe Mind Body Soul Real)

Generate Our Own Warmth and Happiness Within

Coloring Our Real 'Christmas Trees' This Way Lit Up
Year Round With New Colors of Feelings and Senses
In Synergy of Human Moving, Connecting, Co-Creating

Emotions Even More; Hey, Listen, i Used to Feel in Pain and Numb
As the Loneliest Most Depressed Negative Person in the Entire World;

Yet You 'See,' i have the Perspective of that Darkness in HeLL ON Earth Within
For 66 Months Now Before Overcoming Those Real Dark, Numb, Painful Demons

Within of Life;
Yep, 107 Months
in the Other Place Now

With Yes Not Only Still Meditation

Yet 16,800 Miles of Moving Public Dance
In Meditative Flow That Not Only Generates
This Light Within in Autotelic Bliss and Real Nirvana

Yet Lights Up SMiLes on Other Faces Wherever i Go as
of Course Empirically Measured in Thousands of Selfies
With them too (Albeit Mostly Women Yet down Here in the
Deep South Trump State of Florida, Many Boys Were Taught
From Youth that Positive Emotions are Only For Girls And Smiles

And Joy
For No
Reason
Yet the Elation
of Every Living Breath;

Yes it's true Now i am the
Least Lonely and Least Unhappy
Person i know and feel and sense in the

Entire World After Being in the Polar Opposite
Place for 66 Months; Now These 107 Months Only Continue

Now To Grow Lighter And More Warm And Fuzzy Evolving A
Real Organic Human Soul For Real as It's True in this Place

There is No Age,
No Time, No Distance,
No Space Now; Not Even
Any 'Matter of Things' Just

Love Light Airy And Warm And
True What A Free Autotelic Moving
Dance And Song Will Do For Real Day And Night;

Anyway, i Do Life Free Style, i'll Link the Yale Class on
Wellbeing For those Who Look to Authority Other than

What They Explore Within And Find What Works The Best For Them...

Other than that

We Are Truly

In Many
Western
So-Called
First World
Civilizations

Slowly and
Now Faster

Turning into
A 'Cannibalistic
FAiLuRE of CuLTuRES'

Do BeWare of 'the Locals' AS Such...

https://news.yale.edu/2021/04/14/how-gain-sense-well-being-free-and-online

---

Right, I'll tell the guy who told me that information what you think of him, I think my role in life is passing on helpful information (as in this post)

I didn't want to write a long post explaining things in minute detail. But those points certainly seems to apply. I have found that in life, people don't know where to 'place' me. I fall between everyone's ideas of wife/ mother/ daughter/ worker etc. And the class system in Britain! OMG. I don't fit in any of the class stereotypes so I just tend to get blank stares.

Strange people.

What's really been difficult to grapple with, for me, is the understanding that if you fall between categories then competence doesn't/can't matter unless you do it all yourself (ie. start your own company, somehow don't have customers who care what your status is, don't get mugged by customers who'd perceive that they could mug you for being low status or not being able to sue them effectively even if they did, etc.). If you fall between the lines and are thrown in the low status category you're there to be vampirized for any myth of 'work hard/smart to get ahead' that you're holding - ie. you're not supposed to prove anyone wrong, you're supposed to be composted and take it dutifully. It's a bit like I'm in my 40's and still trying to punch my way out of a caste system where I can't do much of anything that I care about in the real world, too much of my time is dragged off into things I 'have to' do for economic survival, having to then shoulder other people's status concerns mangles your effectiveness because you have to bite off a block of perfectly unreasonable behavior and take it as what's expected, and I'm still struggling to answer this question - if at my core my interest is trying to figure out how to leave the world a slightly better place than I found it - how do I do that from under a dung hill?

This is part of why I've taken to trading crypto - I'm lucky enough to work from home right now, have some degree of flex time, but I see where there's no upward mobility in any circumstance where you can't manually force acceptance of achievement on the world around you (if it's in any way 'technical' or above other people's understandings it disappears). Stock and crypto exchanges aren't built in a way to say 'You did gain that money fair and square but - you're a loser who lives with his parents so give it back'. For as much as people might have hated the athletically talented it was a matter of physical prowess so it couldn't be hidden. Similarly making a few million $$ is also something that can't be hidden, particularly if you start doing things with that money like starting a successful business.

That's where I'd add a third point to what you said above - that any status achievements that can be hidden will be ignored and the only ones that remain are those that people can't obscure because doing so would take more effort than they can muster/organize. In that sense it's not about honoring people we'd like to honor anymore, it's just physics and if it's not power it doesn't win.

I just remembered something that I think is pertinent to the topic.

You mentioned that a lot of what people are doing is subconscious, Dan Dennett has a term called 'competence without comprehension' - I think this falls under that umbrella (ie. nature throws meat against the wall to see if it sticks, survivor bias selects for traits that are successful in the rules of the given environment).

Occasionally there have been widespread rebellions against the culture of status-jockeying. An example, within my lifetime, was the hippie movement of the 1960's and early 1970's.

At least here in the U.S.A., the 1960's were also a time of relatively low economic inequality, when there was a very large middle class. That helped a lot.

One of the main things we need, IMO, is for large numbers of people, in many relatively wealthy countries including the U.S.A., to recognize the need for a well-organized movement against today's ever-growing economic inequality. Probably the single most important thing is to TAX THE RICH, at levels that were commonplace in the 1950's and 1960's.

I'm not even sure there's an economic patch to this - ie. neoliberalism encourages companies to outsource labor for maximizing shareholder profit, it looks like there are more jobs than available applicants, raising wages would kick off inflation, and the Federal Reserve is trying to squeeze demand right now to deal with decreased supply.

We'd need to deploy an ethos of some kind that both encouraged cooperation again and made defection, betrayal, etc. costlier than it is now. Using 'The Selfish Gene' probably isn't it, and even if it's always lurking in the background as a part of the reality (as well as David Sloan Wilson noting that the most successful small groups are those who cooperate tightly), there's gotta be something we can draw on. Multipolar traps really suck though, they're what's been tearing culture apart since the beginning and we still don't have solutions to them. Religion was a patch that worked in the case of certain limits on knowledge but now that's unraveled and even if we're dealing with a panentheistic universe and we're the dream of Source or Atman that's something you really can't make a religion out of unless we're doing something as grueling as Hinduism in which case we formalize the caste systems and codify punishment for caste breaches / infractions into law.

Yes. If you don't 'fit in', your achievements don't matter. It makes me think of myself in work meetings where I'd speak up with a good idea, but no one would hear me. Then 2 minutes later, someone else would repeat what I'd said, word for word, and be enthusiastically applauded. I used to wonder if I was invisible.

I do work for myself as an editor at home, which is great. But very lonely.

I didn't really understand your third point, sorry

Sure.

So if you're a better fighter - you can put them into the pavement. If you're significantly larger than them as well they might know it without needing to test you, or if you did already put em on the ground in less than five seconds and they get the feeling you could do it over and over again, on repeat, and still succeed, they can't pretend it's not there because it's a superior physical competence. It's an unforgiving metric, like of the sort where you can't walk off the top of a three story building and walk on air until you realize you're not on the roof anymore - gravity doesn't care whether you're paying attention, something similar can be said of differences in capacity for physical force.

Similarly if someone's naturally athletic they'll beat other people at basketball, baseball, etc.. Those are competencies that can't be masked over, hidden, denied existence, etc.. If there's any flexibility for someone to deny the existence of a competence in another person they typically will. This is part of why things like athleticism, health, money, even being able to weaponize social skills well, these are linked with ability to exert force in the world as well as saying certain positive things about your genes (it can be hard to tell which matters more - ie. the genes or the force aspect, ie. having a really high IQ could be good genes but if people can't understand you or, by comparison, you're 'weird' then it gets read as a point of inferiority - unless you have a few Phd's, are a professor at some ivy league school, etc.).

Pretty much if the incentives are to lie, cheat, and steal anywhere possible when it comes to gaining or denying status then overinflating your own status, deflating other people's status, etc. is optimal and this is where any strength that can't exert itself by blunt force over other people gets papered over as not existing or irrelevant simply because they can do it and get away with it.

---

And Yes THere Goes the Sickness
The Illness of The Condition Coming

NoW This Human DiSoRDeR Indeed
This Zombie Apocalypse Eating
The Face of Nature That is Our

Own Same As Ants Still Busily
Building Mounds For 'Dollar

Tree Stores' to Rise Near
New Subdivisions Taking
Just a Bit More of the Lungs,
The Forests of the Earth Away

For the Balance of Nature Wild
Life No Longer A Place to Play,

Competition Over Cooperation;

God Yes, TaKinG Over Giving
Now Hoarding Over Sharing;
Yes, Callousness Over Caring;
Oh No, Yes, Harming Over Healing

Damn IT ALL Living Out of Balance Yes

With The Rest of Nature

For What it Even means
to Be A Social Animal At All;

Sure, Competition to Survive Yet
Even More Important Cooperation

And Collaboration

To actually

Thrive For

It's True Every Person
in this Discussion is Surviving

Yet How Many of Us Are Truly Thriving
When The End of the World Seems Like
Five Dollars For A Gallon of Gas Enough

to Motivate Folks to Vote For/

Against Potential
Democracy to

Even Last
The Signs Are

Clear Nature is Getting
Ready to Show Us Once
Again We Cannot Eat Money And Be Satisfied

Enough to Even Stay Much Longer As What We've Become...

When A Social Animal Stops Reproducing, When They Detach
From Each Other, And Try to Do Social Animal Alone By

Will Now or
Reality Alone;

The Signs Are
Clear, We've Eaten
Enough Nature As
Nature That is US Naturally Culls

As We Are No Less or More Than What is Balancing All...

It's True, Nature Has A Cure to What Ails IT; Yep, Human
Loneliness Most

Sadly

For Real
Our DiSEaSE
Nature's Cure For
We Can And Will No Longer
Eat Money And Expect to Actually Live...

Meanwhile Personally, i've Found A Niche to
Thrive It's What Social Animals Do as Well till the

Very End

And God Yes
the Beginning
Once Again With SMiLes...

"Heatwave," "Hell's BellS," iT'S Hot As THAT Outside
Yet Yes my "AC/DC" Still Works Well Enough For Now...

---

Thanks. It's nice to get a helpful answer and not be quizzed as to why I want to know. Or why I don't understand.

Some of the challenge as well, at least I found it to be true with myself as I was trying to put correct verbiage and structure to these sorts of things, it's the kind of thing where yeah - it feels 'as if' but, in polite company, you're not supposed to actually think it. The trick I'm trying to manage is both seeing it when it's there and then also making sure I genuinely acknowledge when I'm with the particular percentage of my NT cohort who really are honorable people, live by something closer to Platonist rules in terms of how they treat others, to never let that effect or that way of thinking bleed over unless it really is someone on the edge of that group maybe whose been trying to fake their way in but it isn't working, and even then - to really try not to witch hunt with it but rather to know who to give x many chances to and what x number actually is.

The thing I've noticed with really decent people is they rarely make mistakes that enact power moves in their favor at someone else's expense, it's a bit like they're acutely aware of that pattern and are always watching themselves in order not to play that game - or if there's a near slip they catch it quickly and they show their actual will to be quite opposed to that sort of action.

The other thing, a lot of people stack up near the bottom, and if they're stressed and have fewer prospects they're more likely to be in the mode of seeing everything as part of the fight for existence, which means they won't feel like they have a whole lot of clearance not to play negative-sum games. At the same time even that's not fully an indicator because I've known people who'd probably score average to low-average intelligence but who are very thoughtful, enjoy listening to others, and they're good at being able to tell who knows what they're talking about and borrow wisdom from the right places (I tend to think I have some skill in that area as well) and then I've known people who are most likely in the 115 - 130 IQ range who are thoroughly Machiavellian so it can't just be pinned to intelligence but it's probably some combination of prospects with how they've been treated with, I'm guessing, bottom line genetic wiring toward or away from dark triad/tetrad traits.