Do you think this is true (not for everyone)?

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klanka
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17 Jun 2022, 12:02 pm

QFT wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
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So, going further, does that mean that men are generally more accepting of different/odd people than women are? And women are generally more social hierarchy-conscious and avoid being associated with "inferior" people?


Probably, except not for everyone but it is likely this is common in people.

I read somewhere that NT men have less recognition (not impaired) of non-verbal social cues than NT women. So NT women are more likely to notice something is off about another man or woman no matter how brilliant they are at hiding it. NT women seem to have superpowers.


Its interesting that you put it this way. Because I always felt that the problem with NT-s is that they "misunderstand me" and if only NT-s were a bit smarter so they could "understand me properly" I would be better accepted.

But what you are saying is the opposite. That they understand me jsut fine, know I am weird, and reject me accordingly. I need to be "misunderstood" in order to be "misperceived" as normal to be accepted.

It reminds me of something else. I remember, back in 2009, I had an interview that involved week-long visit to the institute. I didn't know how to approach people, and failed the interview. My then-girlfriend said that part of the reason the professor that invited me didn't help is that he was a man. If it was a woman she would have known I was shy and would have helped. I then was wondering: if woman would have helped in this situation, why don't women help me in other situations?

So could it be that the problem is that in other situations women "don't want" to help. Which goes back to what you were saying. That its not that women misunderstand me but rather they understand me perfectly but their "intention" is to isolate people like me. So people who understand me -- women -- would help me in a job interview but isolate me socially, on the other hand people who are clueless -- men -- wouldn't be that helpful in job interview but won't be isolating me socially either? Is that what you are saying?

When women are in those professional roles they are good at helping



hurtloam
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17 Jun 2022, 12:05 pm

A lot of the female teachers we had were raging , shouty headcases.

I liked my year 6 teacher. She was nice to us.



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17 Jun 2022, 12:14 pm

klanka wrote:
QFT wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
Quote:
So, going further, does that mean that men are generally more accepting of different/odd people than women are? And women are generally more social hierarchy-conscious and avoid being associated with "inferior" people?


Probably, except not for everyone but it is likely this is common in people.

I read somewhere that NT men have less recognition (not impaired) of non-verbal social cues than NT women. So NT women are more likely to notice something is off about another man or woman no matter how brilliant they are at hiding it. NT women seem to have superpowers.


Its interesting that you put it this way. Because I always felt that the problem with NT-s is that they "misunderstand me" and if only NT-s were a bit smarter so they could "understand me properly" I would be better accepted.

But what you are saying is the opposite. That they understand me jsut fine, know I am weird, and reject me accordingly. I need to be "misunderstood" in order to be "misperceived" as normal to be accepted.

It reminds me of something else. I remember, back in 2009, I had an interview that involved week-long visit to the institute. I didn't know how to approach people, and failed the interview. My then-girlfriend said that part of the reason the professor that invited me didn't help is that he was a man. If it was a woman she would have known I was shy and would have helped. I then was wondering: if woman would have helped in this situation, why don't women help me in other situations?

So could it be that the problem is that in other situations women "don't want" to help. Which goes back to what you were saying. That its not that women misunderstand me but rather they understand me perfectly but their "intention" is to isolate people like me. So people who understand me -- women -- would help me in a job interview but isolate me socially, on the other hand people who are clueless -- men -- wouldn't be that helpful in job interview but won't be isolating me socially either? Is that what you are saying?

When women are in those professional roles they are good at helping


Which brings up the question: if they are good at helping in professional roles, why are they not good in helping in social context?

If in social context they misunderstood me, they would misunderstand me professionally too. So does it mean that in social context they understand me just fine, and are simply "playing dumb"?



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17 Jun 2022, 12:18 pm

hurtloam wrote:
A lot of the female teachers we had were raging , shouty headcases.

I liked my year 6 teacher. She was nice to us.


Looking back at my childhood, I would say the same thing. But then if I ask myself a question "what would have happened if one of my male teachers were to shout" I would say "it would have been a lot more scarrier". Could it be that this is why male teachers don't shout since they are aware they would scare people if they did?

Well, my natural voice happened to be loud, even if I am not angry its just natural voice. And if I get angry then yes, I shout. But thats because I view myself as a kid, not as a man. Being referred to as a man actually feels awkward. So could it be that perceiving myself as a kid (which result to shouting) in combination with others seeing me as a man, is a reason why women seem scared of me?



klanka
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17 Jun 2022, 2:08 pm

It could be that they don't offer to help cos you might misinterpret it as romantic interest.

How could a woman help you? Answer questions you have or support you in social situations?
It tends to be the empath helpful women drawn to those helping professions. So asking a random woman would probably not work in the majority of cases as most people are not empaths...but if you ask enough times you'll find an empath



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17 Jun 2022, 3:25 pm

klanka wrote:
It could be that they don't offer to help cos you might misinterpret it as romantic interest.

How could a woman help you? Answer questions you have or support you in social situations?
It tends to be the empath helpful women drawn to those helping professions. So asking a random woman would probably not work in the majority of cases as most people are not empaths...but if you ask enough times you'll find an empath



By help I meant help to fit in socially. If I clearly don’t talk to anyone, then they could help me by approaching me first and striking a conversation.

When I ask why don’t they do it I am often told they don’t know I want to be talked to. But from what I hear now they do: after all they know I want it in professional setting. So saying they don’t know is just playing dumb on their behalf.

Or going back to earlier points presented on this thread, it was said that women have much better weirdness detector because they are more socially aware. So if their increased social awareness helps them see I am weird, then it should also help them see I want to be talked to. So the excuse that they don’t know the latter goes out the window.



klanka
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17 Jun 2022, 3:42 pm

I do believe they can tell when you're having a hard time. A certain percentage of people are empath, it seems quite a low percentage. It seems that they don't approach cos it could be misinterpreted.

I never get helped in those situations. Maybe if you just said to anyone you know that you have trouble and expect most of them to not know or care. Oh, that's what I did at my local church actually but it didn't really help. I'll try to go this Sunday and see if there's any joy.



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17 Jun 2022, 4:22 pm

In answer to OP's questions:

Female, 48, had a clique of "weird kids" I was part of when I was high school age.

I am both far less successful, socially, than many NTs, but far more than many autistics I know.

However, I had "male" interests. I was also a kind of cute girl with male interests and "being quirky/weird" was tolerated. I was maybe one of two girls in my social world and that other girl had completely different tastes in companions.

It wasn't perfect, but it was a lot easier than it became. I was mostly friends with guys and I also dated guys. I liked the "tomboy friend" dynamic with men more than dating them.

Later, for years, I lived as a lesbian and was basically an incel. I tended to have friends who were gay men while I was in the LGBTQ world and came to see myself as genderqueer for a long time. So I think a lot of one's romantic success may connect to what gender they prefer. I fully expected to be alone the rest of my life before unexpectedly falling in love with a man (who I am still with).

Since age 21, I began finding it progressively harder and harder to have friends *or* lovers. I have a very very small social world at this point, I don't really tend to make friends with women unless they're weird (my guy friends tend to be computer types and my women friends tend to be artists).

I don't really get on that well with a lot of NT women, or - for that matter - women aspiring to NT norms. My friends tend to be bohemians/eccentrics/old school nerds/older LGBT people. I often find myself feeling weirdly gender dysphoric around NT women and don't experience this feeling otherwise.

Also:
All my life I've found it much easier to make friends if I'm willing to go outside of my age group, gender, and or culture.


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orbweaver
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17 Jun 2022, 4:39 pm

Joe90 wrote:
Quote:
So, going further, does that mean that men are generally more accepting of different/odd people than women are? And women are generally more social hierarchy-conscious and avoid being associated with "inferior" people?


Probably, except not for everyone but it is likely this is common in people.

I read somewhere that NT men have less recognition (not impaired) of non-verbal social cues than NT women. So NT women are more likely to notice something is off about another man or woman no matter how brilliant they are at hiding it. NT women seem to have superpowers.


I'm really fascinated by this. Because I'm self aware enough to know what *precise* neuro glitches are happening when I'm trying to interact with a group of NT women. Some other stuff has just been culture shock because I'm used to the norms of ND and mixed-social-aptitude spaces (like old nerd culture).

NT women sit around tables a lot, look at each other a lot, and talk a lot. There is a focus often on the whole table being part of the conversation, and often a hierarchy present at the table.

My male friends in general are easier to be around because of how much of their social stuff just consists of playing video games or watching TV. Even when they sit at a table, some men will talk to each other, some will joke, some will check out, some will be in a one-on-one conversation, and if they're a bunch of computer types at a restaurant then some will even doodle on their napkins. (I have gotten dinged for doodling in the presence of normie professional women.)


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17 Jun 2022, 4:43 pm

klanka wrote:
Maybe if you just said to anyone you know that you have trouble and expect most of them to not know or care.


Actually I do say this on a regular basis. Most people would give me some platitude out of politeness and not do anything about it.

If I look at the past decade, I can think of few people (both male and female) that did try to engage me after I complained. But they are few and far between. And they weren't engaging me the way they engage their real friends. They would just make me a company when I am at church or wherever they were, they won't invite me to hang out or anything. Okay I guess one girl invited me to walk with her towards our meeting (I didn't respond to her as it was out of pity). Other than that, everything was confined to whatever location church meetings were at. But more importantly, it was very rare.

Also I notice a gender dynamics here. In some cases it is mainly males who would engage me, making me wondr if females feel scared of me. And other time its the opposite that its females. The latter wonder that maybe they did read my mind since I am focused on females. And if they do, then the excuse that everyone else doesn't engage me because they dont know I want it, is simply not true.

But most importantly, those examples are very rare. Most often, people won't talk to me any more than they otherwise would, just because I complained.

Now, here is the opposite example to those. This one is a male. Now the male in question DOES want to be my friend, and this time its not pity. Instead, he thinks that I have similar problems he does so he thinks he can relate. But the key phrase here is he thinks. Because he conjectured that my intention of having a girlfriend is to "treat her with anger" and because I am subconsciously aware that my intentions are not good, thats why I am stopping myself from interacting with women. But that is totally off. The reason I am stopping myself from interacting with women is because I feel like THEY don't like me, NOT because of any of my intentions. As far as anger, yes I displayed anger in front of him, thats what made him think along those lines. But my anger is a result of being rejected, not its cause. He seemed to have switched it around and he thinks anger issues is a cause. Well, the way he describes his own issues seems closer to that. No he doesn't have anger issues. But he described himself as having some other attitude related issues that would cause him to withdraw from situations (and by the way I never wittnessed them, so maybe he is just being tough on himself who knows). But in any case, I am not him I don't operate that way. So when he assumes I operate the way he does that just hurts me. Because I genuinely want to connect to women while he thinks I secretly don't want it since he assumes I am afraid of my own anger or something.

Now is THIS part of what you mean when people are bad empaths? When they just flip everything around?

But then again, he was a guy. And from what you said girls are better reading people than guys. So do you think that a girl would know better than to think what he does. She would KNOW my issue is JUST shyness yet STILL choose not to empathize?



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17 Jun 2022, 5:51 pm

He's having trouble putting himself in your shoes which is similar to empathy yes.

When someone has an obvious disability like being in a wheelchair there is usually one or two in a group who will put themselves out. But for autism, it would have to be officially recognised by the church or workplace to get proper help. So you had the same experience in church then.
Smaller churches are usually better for asd .



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17 Jun 2022, 6:02 pm

I do get along with other women but I can't seem to get past the acquaintance stage.

I work with only 2 women but mostly guys. I must admit women talk about more interesting things than guys. Women talk about feelings more, while guys conversations often revolve around facts. The guys at my work often talk about the work in great detail (mechanical stuff that is double dutch to me, as I'm just a cleaner), even on their lunch breaks. That or they talk about driving, mentioning roads and routes and stuff. They swear a lot too and can't always talk without yelling at each other in a jokey way. Women talk more about their families, animals, chores, other people, etc - more interesting stuff (well, it's interesting to me). And they say more about their feelings.

But for some reason, although I find most the things guys talk about boring, they're still easier to make friends with for me, and I figure it's because they aren't as fussy as women when it comes to friendships.

Oh, and although Aspies stereotype NTs with talking about sports non-stop, I actually very seldom hear NTs talking about sports.


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18 Jun 2022, 7:56 am

Joe90 wrote:
I don't mean there's a rule or that it's the same for all Aspies, but I have noticed a pattern in my 12 years of being a member on this board.

Males on the spectrum = more likely to have friends, more likely to struggle finding/keeping a romantic relationship

Females on the spectrum = more likely to find/keep a romantic relationship, more likely to struggle with making friends

It just seems quite common here. The L&D section is usually full of lonely Aspie guys wanting a girlfriend, while a lot of women here seem to be married or in a relationship, but a lot of threads in this section are frustrated women feeling lonely (as in lacking friends).

I know Aspie guys are probably less likely to have friends than their NT peers. But it seems harder for Aspie women to make friends but easier for Aspie women to find love than it does for Aspie guys.

For example, I am useless at making friends even though my social skills aren't that poor, but meeting a date is a piece of cake, and I don't find being in a long-term relationship hard or exhausting or confusing at all.

I wonder why this is? Is it because there's more pressure on women when it comes to finding friends but more pressure on men when it comes to asking a girl out on a date?


I am going to break the stereotype....

I don't mind whether I have friends or not as I don't really get lonely...but I would like a companion in life though.

I do struggle in relationships and although I got a grades at uni I'm terrible at keeping up with housework.

I don't really relate to other females and prefer the company of men (they have all the best toys...) but having a friendship with a man is hard as they seem to get romantically attached.

I'm not really relationship material and although I'd like a companion in life I like living alone and have done for over 20 years.

I like the space and freedom, my samenesses (routines) and obsessions...im lost without them and can't give them up to be with someone...my partners always mess with my obsessions and that triggers what I call an overload (autistic meltdown which are different from nt woman upset...at their worst I scream, May hit myself, and may smash things and they can be triggered by either physical or emotional overload. I called them my overloads before I heard of autism and meltdowns).

what I want more than anything is to sober up and go back to uni...i want to study anthropology or paleontology...i did some archaeology years ago.

I love studying and doing research and writing essays...i even enjoyed exams.

its the only thing id sober up for



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18 Jun 2022, 8:04 am

Joe90 wrote:
I do get along with other women but I can't seem to get past the acquaintance stage.

I work with only 2 women but mostly guys. I must admit women talk about more interesting things than guys. Women talk about feelings more, while guys conversations often revolve around facts. The guys at my work often talk about the work in great detail (mechanical stuff that is double dutch to me, as I'm just a cleaner), even on their lunch breaks. That or they talk about driving, mentioning roads and routes and stuff. They swear a lot too and can't always talk without yelling at each other in a jokey way. Women talk more about their families, animals, chores, other people, etc - more interesting stuff (well, it's interesting to me). And they say more about their feelings.

But for some reason, although I find most the things guys talk about boring, they're still easier to make friends with for me, and I figure it's because they aren't as fussy as women when it comes to friendships.

Oh, and although Aspies stereotype NTs with talking about sports non-stop, I actually very seldom hear NTs talking about sports.


my feelings are usually different to those around me so I can't experience empathy (I can be very compassionate though...very gentle soul underneath the meltdowns which I try to keep away from people...dont like upsetting anyone) and they will not understand my upsets such as when I can't find my tickle.

or when they mess 1ith my diet and fitness program...oddly I'm big into nutrition (paleo right now) and exercise, I'm just a bit too pissed for the latter right now.

I do have a wonderfully full fridge of fresh food though....



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18 Jun 2022, 8:04 am

and stop being down on yourself for being autistic...it's ok.



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18 Jun 2022, 8:11 am

klanka wrote:
He's having trouble putting himself in your shoes which is similar to empathy yes.

When someone has an obvious disability like being in a wheelchair there is usually one or two in a group who will put themselves out. But for autism, it would have to be officially recognised by the church or workplace to get proper help. So you had the same experience in church then.
Smaller churches are usually better for asd .


I was at a church gathering other day, they were very friendly and the vicar was kind enough to drive me home.

I am not religious I ended up there by accident but they fed me with a sausage roll and chocolate cake (no paleo I know)

they were very sweet and they gave me a bible read.

I am not anti religion...each to their own