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Mountain Goat
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20 Jun 2022, 5:44 pm

Mikah wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Are you referring to the "Solar Radiation" with which that solar cells are alleged to contaminate the environment?


I haven't heard of that before, actually I don't know what that means. Light pollution? I am referring to the lead, cadmium, antimony and various other toxic compounds that go into the construction of standard solar panels, they are very difficult to recycle, so it will likely just have to be stored somewhere out of reach of people and the elements, much like nuclear waste. In comparison to nuclear about 300 times the toxic waste per energy unit is produced. The worst part is that it is said that the cadmium (known carcinogen) in particular is washed out into the ground water by rain over the lifespan of a solar panel, causing future problems even before the panels reach end of life.


That is the problem with these so called "Green" alternatives because they are actually more polluting than using the old ways Fossil fuels etc) which may have been visually polluting but compared to the production of batteries for electric vehicles and the polution to make solar panels etc, we are actually creating a far worse issue through following the so called "Green" movement than if we had not have started.
Then we have things like windmills which cost per unit slightly more than the cost of the electricity they produce in their lifetimes if one excludes the tax payers grants, and their wings and other parts are not recyclable so have to be crushed and buried which have been criticized for causing a future enviromental dilemma.



Mikah
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20 Jun 2022, 5:45 pm

Fnord wrote:
Mikah wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Are you referring to the "Solar Radiation" with which that solar cells are alleged to contaminate the environment?
I haven't heard of that before, actually I don't know what that means. Light pollution? I am referring to the lead, cadmium, antimony, and various other toxic compounds that go into the construction of standard solar panels . . .
. . . and into every other electronic device on the market.  What is your point?


Grid scale solar farms reaching end of life turn what is now a "problem" into a full scale environmental disaster. If we stick them all in landfills we poison the soil and ourselves, guaranteed. If in our green frenzy we're seriously considering building massive long term waste storage just so we can utilise fairly useless solar panels, then at least we can say the problems of storing 1/300th of the volume of nuclear waste should not be a serious argument against nuclear power.


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r00tb33r
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20 Jun 2022, 5:58 pm

Brushing electrons from the air is not a new concept. I like to think of Earth as a closed system, so if we all harvested electrons from air we'd change the charge density of the atmosphere, resulting in the loss of "free" energy, and potential changes in the atmosphere.


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Fnord
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20 Jun 2022, 6:05 pm

r00tb33r wrote:
Brushing electrons from the air is not a new concept. I like to think of Earth as a closed system, so if we all harvested electrons from air we'd change the charge density of the atmosphere, resulting in the loss of "free" energy, and potential changes in the atmosphere.
Well then, show us how it is done without ambient electrical fields generated by human utilities.

No, I am not being snarky; I really do want to see someone demonstrate a practical and safe source of "free" energy.



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20 Jun 2022, 6:13 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
Mikah wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Are you referring to the "Solar Radiation" with which that solar cells are alleged to contaminate the environment?


I haven't heard of that before, actually I don't know what that means. Light pollution? I am referring to the lead, cadmium, antimony and various other toxic compounds that go into the construction of standard solar panels, they are very difficult to recycle, so it will likely just have to be stored somewhere out of reach of people and the elements, much like nuclear waste. In comparison to nuclear about 300 times the toxic waste per energy unit is produced. The worst part is that it is said that the cadmium (known carcinogen) in particular is washed out into the ground water by rain over the lifespan of a solar panel, causing future problems even before the panels reach end of life.


That is the problem with these so called "Green" alternatives because they are actually more polluting than using the old ways Fossil fuels etc) which may have been visually polluting but compared to the production of batteries for electric vehicles and the polution to make solar panels etc, we are actually creating a far worse issue through following the so called "Green" movement than if we had not have started.
Then we have things like windmills which cost per unit slightly more than the cost of the electricity they produce in their lifetimes if one excludes the tax payers grants, and their wings and other parts are not recyclable so have to be crushed and buried which have been criticized for causing a future enviromental dilemma.

what about "green" house emissions? :P



r00tb33r
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20 Jun 2022, 6:19 pm

Fnord wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
Brushing electrons from the air is not a new concept. I like to think of Earth as a closed system, so if we all harvested electrons from air we'd change the charge density of the atmosphere, resulting in the loss of "free" energy, and potential changes in the atmosphere.
Well then, show us how it is done without ambient electrical fields generated by human utilities.

No, I am not being snarky; I really do want to see someone demonstrate a practical and safe source of "free" energy.

I'm saying there is no free energy. There is a finite amount of it and it's a closed system.

As for the ambient sources, you know Benjamin Franklin's experiment with the kite and a key tied to the string? He received a shock from it. It wasn't so much the kite but the long string brushing electrons out of the charged air as it dragged through it before an electrical storm. There were no significant human-made sources that would be charging the air back then.


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Fnord
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20 Jun 2022, 6:47 pm

r00tb33r wrote:
Fnord wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
Brushing electrons from the air is not a new concept. I like to think of Earth as a closed system, so if we all harvested electrons from air we'd change the charge density of the atmosphere, resulting in the loss of "free" energy, and potential changes in the atmosphere.
Well then, show us how it is done without ambient electrical fields generated by human utilities.

No, I am not being snarky; I really do want to see someone demonstrate a practical and safe source of "free" energy.
I'm saying there is no free energy. There is a finite amount of it and it's a closed system. . .
Zero Point Energy ("Zed-PE") has been proposed -- "There is enough zero-point energy in an ordinary teacup to vaporize the Earth", I think the saying goes.

There is also the idea that if someone on Earth found a way to tap into ZPE, we would never know it because our planet would be instantly vaporized.



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24 Jun 2022, 10:59 am

Fnord wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
Fnord wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
Brushing electrons from the air is not a new concept. I like to think of Earth as a closed system, so if we all harvested electrons from air we'd change the charge density of the atmosphere, resulting in the loss of "free" energy, and potential changes in the atmosphere.
Well then, show us how it is done without ambient electrical fields generated by human utilities.

No, I am not being snarky; I really do want to see someone demonstrate a practical and safe source of "free" energy.
I'm saying there is no free energy. There is a finite amount of it and it's a closed system. . .
Zero Point Energy ("Zed-PE") has been proposed -- "There is enough zero-point energy in an ordinary teacup to vaporize the Earth", I think the saying goes.

There is also the idea that if someone on Earth found a way to tap into ZPE, we would never know it because our planet would be instantly vaporized.


I sold a broken lawn mower to a fellow physics professor for $5 a decade ago. He said he was going to build a ZPE machine with it and change the world. I am still waiting for him to do so. I think i will be waiting a long, long time yet. At least I got rid of some junk in the process.



klanka
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24 Jun 2022, 12:29 pm

Fnord wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
Brushing electrons from the air is not a new concept. I like to think of Earth as a closed system, so if we all harvested electrons from air we'd change the charge density of the atmosphere, resulting in the loss of "free" energy, and potential changes in the atmosphere.
Well then, show us how it is done without ambient electrical fields generated by human utilities.

No, I am not being snarky; I really do want to see someone demonstrate a practical and safe source of "free" energy.

Ever heard of lightning?

I think that proves there is electricity in the air without human intervention.



klanka
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24 Jun 2022, 2:23 pm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas- ... s_Dalibard

So this bloke built a 40ft high tower and extracted electricity from clouds 8O

This was before Ben Franklin 's kite experiment and was actually suggested by Franklin himself



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24 Jun 2022, 3:06 pm

klanka wrote:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas-Fran%C3%A7ois_Dalibard

So this bloke built a 40ft high tower and extracted electricity from clouds 8O

This was before Ben Franklin 's kite experiment and was actually suggested by Franklin himself
"It is said that Dalibard used wine bottles to ground the pole, and he successfully extracted electricity from a low cloud." -- From the cited article

Conductors are needed to "ground" an object.

Wine bottles are made of glass.

Glass is an insulator.

: : The pole was not "grounded".

This error leaves the alleged results of his experiment in doubt.



Fnord
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24 Jun 2022, 3:14 pm

klanka wrote:
Fnord wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
Brushing electrons from the air is not a new concept. I like to think of Earth as a closed system, so if we all harvested electrons from air we'd change the charge density of the atmosphere, resulting in the loss of "free" energy, and potential changes in the atmosphere.
Well then, show us how it is done without ambient electrical fields generated by human utilities.  No, I am not being snarky; I really do want to see someone demonstrate a practical and safe source of "free" energy.
Ever heard of lightning?  I think that proves there is electricity in the air without human intervention.
Have you ever heard of  "Benjamin Franklin & His Electric Kite Hoax" ?  Also, you have not demonstrated this "Free Electricity" theory of yours.  Build your 40-foot tower, far from any man-made source of electric fields (including power lines), and extract enough useable electricity to power an average American house.  Go ahead.  I will wait.  Be sure to record a video of your "experiment".



klanka
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24 Jun 2022, 4:32 pm

You're positing that a well known historical event didnt happen. So, the burden of proof would be on you, so you would have to read the book and then reproduce the appropriate parts...in an appropriate way for a forum.

No one else but you seems to think this experiement with the tower didnt happen...

I still don't understand why man-made electricity must be the culprit if we have lightning storms...


Also if scientific literature exists that says something happens..we don't have to reproduce every experiment to make sure it is real. Before we can discuss said experiments.



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24 Jun 2022, 4:38 pm

klanka wrote:
You're positing that a well known historical event didnt happen. So, the burden of proof would be on you...
Wrong again!

The burden of proof is always on the person asserting the positive claim, and not on the skeptics asking for a demonstration.  Shifting the burden of proof to skeptics of a claim is fallacious, especially when a simple real-life demonstration of the claim (not another bogus YouTube video) would settle the matter once and for all.

Even if you successfully demonstrate that electricity may be pulled from the air, you must also demonstrate that you could pull enough electricity from the air to do something useful, like power a house or electric vehicle.