Good advice for guys who can't meet women...

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Plus, it really, really isn't only women who fall for that.

Also, I find it a little odd that you indicate low self esteem. . . as if it were an insult or something. Just weird.

No, I don't mean it as an insult.

But I do think women who are attracted by putdowns have self-esteem issues.

I don't want to insult them for it, but I do wish they had higher self-esteem - both for their own sake, and so guys wouldn't get the message that it's in their best interest to go around acting like clods towards women.

Mind you, it does make the real gentlemen stand out when the jerks don't feel the need to hide it anymore...

Am I missing something?

The article specifically stated that a neg is not supposed to be a putdown, to my recollection.

(Not being snarky--I'm just wondering if this is some social phenomenon everybody but me knows about and this word has connotations I don't understand.)

Last edited by gwenevyn on 07 Aug 2007, 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well, here's an example from David DeAngelo:

When you "ask a woman out on a date", you're basically saying, "Hi, I'm interested in you in a romantic way, and I'd like to buy you some food so you'll think of me as a wonderful provider, and then maybe we can go out on some more dates that I'll pay for and then get into a relationship... if I'm lucky and you'll accept me".

Duh.

Instead of asking a woman out to lunch tell her, "Hey, I'm going to get a cup of tea. Come along and entertain me. And I don't mean with that usual boring stuff that you talk about."

Here's another one:

I personally believe that TELLING a woman that you "like her" is one of the WORST things you can do.

If you want a woman to know that you like her, the best way is to have her FIGURE IT OUT by the fact that you guys are getting PHYSICALLY INVOLVED.

Here's another one:

If SHE starts asking the "normal" questions about school, job, family, etc. this is a perfect opportunity to bust on her and say "What, is this a job interview?"

Or "Can't you think of something interesting to talk about? Please, spare me the pain of the usual school-job-family conversation. Let's save that until we're picking names for our kids."

And if you're a woman and you don't like that kind of treatment? Guess what... it's YOUR fault. You have NO SENSE OF HUMOUR.

I was ordering a drink, and she bumped into me.

I turned and said, "Don't touch me!"

She just looked at me with a "You're a jerk" look, and leaned away from me.

I smiled at her and said, "It was a joke, it's OK" (with kind of a slightly sarcastic "you didn't get it" tone of voice).

She said something like, "Well, it wasn't funny. You seem like an arrogant jerk"...

I immediately recognized this girl as a person who just plain doesn't have a sharp sense of humor, and who is probably a HUGE pain in the ass to deal with in real life... so I laughed at her.

As far as I can tell, he's the best of a bad lot.

This is how guys are being told to treat women. And if women don't like it, they're being taught there's something wrong with the woman.

Oh.

Yeah, those examples are just sociopathic. Downright abusive, really.

That's what I get for giving somebody's intentions the benefit of the doubt.

I still stand by my own observations, but I won't defend any of that bunch.

That's what makes it so difficult to get advice for finding women in a respectful way... in this day and age of dating.

People who want to be respectful look at this stuff... and say "no way... that's terrible. If that's how you get women... I don't want any part of that." at least thats what I say.

Then there is the opposite side that just says be your self and be nice... and that doesn't work.

There needs to be advice for a happy middle ground here.

Well, it isn't how you get women with high self-esteem.

But maybe we're in the minority.

I've been skimming David DeAngelo's 'newsletters' for a while and I think his two main messages are: First:

This is one that I've needed to hear - don't trip over myself chasing a woman, it's a lot less pressure on both sides to relax and even let her do some of the chasing ...if she decides she wants me.

Let me step on a mine here and posit that, whether we admit it or not, the woman controls love and sex (don't flame me, take it up with Camille Paglia.) So let me suggest that men wanting help dealing with women is, to some extent, an attempt to redress a power imbalance. [I don't condone anyone manipulating or taking advantage of anyone else.] As an ADD/Aspie/nerd who looks (& dresses) like Kevin Smith but with no fame, power or status, I don't even register on women's attraction radar, which I resent.

David D's 2nd main message, that attraction isn't a (conscious, rational) choice is a hard pill for us modern, intelligent people to swallow, but:
And while I can sort of understand women's attraction for the 'bad boy' it can be frustrating as hell when I would respect her, treat her better, be considerate, loyal, gentle, and loving. I guess that's just boring, like comfortable old shoes.

Oh, a 3rd one: he says to be cocky/funny. And since he says his approach is for especially beautiful women, the 'busting' is to distinguish you from all the other guys who hit on them.

Last edited by tomart on 07 Aug 2007, 11:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Funny, I just finished posting on the women's forum about how although I like dressing and grooming in a feminine way, I hate knowing that if I stop, I'll be penalized for it.

Not much point resenting things you can't change, though admittedly I do it myself all the time. If you want to move up on the radar, get in shape and start dressing and grooming better.

Trust me, no matter how much time and money you put into it, women are doing ten times more of it and are expected to do so. Therefore, that's one area where there's no need for you guys to feel put upon.

I especially like the eyelashes, and the long orange hair.

Yeah, as post-liberated as I think I am, I do still like to see women get all dressed up, and while married I got to see how much bother that can be.

Hee! The best part is, except for the yellow skin it's actually a pretty close match!



Well, there you go then. Either put a bit of effort into it yourself, or stop resenting women for not responding to you when you don't.

Cocky/funny is great, but not when it shades over into being insulting/abusive.



Oh, it distinguishes you, all right.

About the neg....

I think this is the worst advice for an Aspie. Here's why: we cannot dose these things, we cannot adjust to the context, we cannot read the cues on others to see how it goes.... If a guy is drooling all night over a girl and suddenly do something odd, the guy will just look gross.... that is not the intent here i think

Last edited by coyote on 09 Aug 2007, 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yup, it's hard enough to know what you are socially supposed to do to be polite. Much less how to be slightly rude and make it work in your favor.

All this stuff requires a level of social awareness that just doesn't show up on the radar.

Of course understanding what women generally find attractive... and the way they ideally want to start and initiate a relationship... that's good stuff to know.

David D defines the 4 traits of "cool":
Independent
Indifferent (don't get caught up in drama)
Funny
Socially Adjusted

So all my attempts to be "cool" were doomed from the start.