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TwilightPrincess
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18 Jul 2022, 11:51 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:

That is sad. I hope they were able to wake up and lead fulfilling lives as adults.


I just googled the name of the younger one and found her Facebook page. All I can see publicly are a lot of memes related to heartbreak and nostalgia. It's hard to tell if she's still JW or not but maybe JW wouldn't be allowed to use social media? It seems like maybe she had a divorce as well based on some of the memes, but it's hard to know what she's getting at without seeing the big picture. I actually started crying to see her profile photo because I remember her so well. I loved that girl and I suddenly feel like she was my only friend. I hope she's doing OK. It was tempting to reach out but chances are she wouldn't even remember me.


They are allowed to cautiously use social media these days as long as they avoid information or people that are critical of their religious beliefs or that violate them in some other way. It was another change since I left.

It's hard to say if she's in or out. Sometimes you can tell by their friends' pictures (been there, done that).

It's unusual for JWs to divorce, but it can happen. Technically, they aren't allowed to (or there will be consequences) except for cases of adultery.


That's what I was thinking: If she got divorced she likely isn't JW anymore. There's a lot of reference to heartbreak and getting over someone. You know, those "I will survive" types of memes ... but more suggestive of relationship loss than a difficult life. I can't see her friends list or anything. I can't even find her sister. There's a reference to her dad having passed away. I wonder if that's what set her free, if she did get out?


It’s a possibility. People do sometimes wait to leave until their parents die. Feeling guilt about devastating one’s family keeps a lot of people in. It kept me in for years.


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klanka
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19 Jul 2022, 1:47 pm

Glad you got out
I noticed that you can see the whites above his iris,

It's basically what makes him look like he has 'crazy eyes'



TwilightPrincess
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19 Jul 2022, 1:58 pm

klanka wrote:
Charles Manson had the same crazy eyes, they do seem to be indicative of cult leaders


That's true. Manson is a cult leader.

Stephen Lett is also often compared, looks-wise, to the leader of Heaven's Gate. In some pictures, the similarity is uncanny. I would imbed a picture, but I don't remember how. :lol:


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klanka
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19 Jul 2022, 2:01 pm

oh yes i was thinking about him

Image



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19 Jul 2022, 2:09 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
Manson is a cult leader.
"Was".  He died on November 19, 2017, while serving time in a Bakersfield, California prison.



TwilightPrincess
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19 Jul 2022, 2:11 pm

klanka wrote:
oh yes i was thinking about him

Image


Thanks!

The similarity is striking.


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19 Jul 2022, 2:36 pm

I can't think of anything less actively and directly harmful than a baby, but some of these religionists insist that the "help or harm" factor is less important than their systems of morality which embody nothing but their omniscient leader's wishes - a leader who is so wonderful and cosmic that we're too stupid and flawed to see the sense in what he's doing for us. They never really explain why they assert these things, they just quote their scriptures and push their own interpretations, and I think the reason why they do that is because their ideas don't ultimately make sense, so they have to hide behind woolly, irrational arguments that explain nothing to anybody impartial, and blame the listener for not understanding. Spiritual leaders like to pretend they're never wrong, which I guess is why it's so rare that their own followers contradict them. Yet I doubt there was ever anybody born who hasn't been guilty of talking rubbish occasionally. The honest ones admit they don't know it all, and can be persuaded to change their minds in the light of evidence and sound argument.



Mona Pereth
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20 Jul 2022, 9:44 am

I have a lot of issues with the Jehovah's Witnesses and other authoritarian religious groups.

In particular, the JWs' policy of requiring people not to talk to family members who have left the group is absolutely horrible.

However:

klanka wrote:
I noticed that you can see the whites above his iris,

It's basically what makes him look like he has 'crazy eyes'

He has those "crazy eyes" only when dramatizing his point about how selfish little children are.

A lot of people have similarly "crazy eyes" when making dramatic points of whatever kind. I don't see this, in and of itself, as implying anything about his overall personality.

In general I dislike the whole idea of judging people based on their occasional facial expressions. Autistic people, in particular, are often harmed by such judgments.

But I agree that the JWs' are, in many ways, a majorly problematic authoritarian religious group.


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TwilightPrincess
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20 Jul 2022, 12:54 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
He has those "crazy eyes" only when dramatizing his point about how selfish little children are.

No, he makes crazy facial expressions every single time he gives sermons, like many cult leaders do. He doesn't talk like that in normal conversation or in sermons given only to his fellow leaders.
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In general I dislike the whole idea of judging people based on their occasional facial expressions.

They aren't occasional. It is a part of his cult persona.


:lol:

It's an attempt at eliciting an emotional response from (and emotional control over) the viewer - rank and file JWs. It's extreme because cults are extreme.

I judge him because he’s an awful person.

[Maybe I should make: “Jesus did it shortly before being executed” my new signature… :idea:]


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Mona Pereth
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20 Jul 2022, 2:34 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
He has those "crazy eyes" only when dramatizing his point about how selfish little children are.

No, he makes crazy facial expressions every single time he gives sermons, like many cult leaders do. He doesn't talk like that in normal conversation or in sermons given only to his fellow leaders.
Quote:
In general I dislike the whole idea of judging people based on their occasional facial expressions.

They aren't occasional. It is a part of his cult persona.

I meant that, in the context of the video clip that was shown earlier, he had those "crazy eyes" only when dramatizing a specific point.

Twilightprincess wrote:

:lol:

It's an attempt at eliciting an emotional response from (and emotional control over) the viewer - rank and file JWs.

In short, he has those "crazy eyes" only when he's being deliberately dramatic.

I vaguely recall seeing other charismatic speakers do this too. Some of these people were really bad people, but not all of them.

Twilightprincess wrote:
It's extreme because cults are extreme.

I judge him because he’s an awful person.

I'm not disputing that he's an awful person, or at least that he's one of the leaders of an awful organization and is advocating a generally awful set of beliefs.

I'm disputing only the idea that that particular facial expression is necessarily a sign of an awful person.

He's an awful person for reasons other than just having dramatic facial expressions.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 20 Jul 2022, 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TwilightPrincess
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20 Jul 2022, 2:37 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
I'm disputing only the idea that that particular facial expression is necessarily a sign of an awful person.


I am stating that it’s a common trait among cult leaders.

Also, I think there’s a difference between being appropriately expressive while giving an engaging speech, as Lett is among his peers, and what we’re seeing here.


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Mona Pereth
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20 Jul 2022, 2:52 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
I am stating that it’s a common trait among cult leaders.

It's probably a common trait among charismatic speakers more generally (as well as some other people, too). And being a charismatic speaker is, obviously, a common trait among leaders of abusive groups ("cults"), especially large ones. But not all charismatic speakers are leaders of abusive groups.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 20 Jul 2022, 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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20 Jul 2022, 3:02 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I am stating that it’s a common trait among cult leaders.

It's probably a common trait among charismatic speakers more generally. And being a charismatic speaker is, obviously, a common trait among leaders of abusive groups ("cults"), especially large ones. But not all charismatic speakers are leaders of abusive groups.


I don’t recall saying that this was Lett’s only cult characteristic.

Good, engaging speakers would not deliberately choose to deliver their speeches in this manner.

There’s a difference between appropriately expressive/charismatic and over-the-top/bizarre/crazy.


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Mona Pereth
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20 Jul 2022, 3:39 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
Good, engaging speakers would not deliberately choose to deliver their speeches in this manner.

There’s a difference between appropriately expressive/charismatic and over-the-top/bizarre/crazy.

Here's an example of a legitimate "engaging speaker" who often -- and deliberately -- has various "over-the-top/bizarre/crazy" facial expressions, occasionally including the one we are speaking of: The Science Asylum. As far as I can tell, his videos are legitimate science documentaries, presented in an entertaining manner.

Another, somewhat similar video producer is Michael Stevens of VSauce. (See his picture about a third of the way down this page.)

I'm not in a position to judge whether their videos are 100% accurate, but, in any case, these people clearly aren't cult leaders.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 20 Jul 2022, 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TwilightPrincess
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20 Jul 2022, 3:42 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Good, engaging speakers would not deliberately choose to deliver their speeches in this manner.

There’s a difference between appropriately expressive/charismatic and over-the-top/bizarre/crazy.

Here's an example of a legitimate "engaging speaker" who often -- and deliberately -- has various "over-the-top/bizarre/crazy" facial expressions, occasionally including the one we are speaking of: The Science Asylum. As far as I can tell, his videos are legitimate science documentaries, presented in an entertaining manner.

Another, somewhat similar video producer is Michael Stevens of VSauce.

I'm not in a position to judge whether their videos are 100% accurate, but, in any case, these people clearly aren't cult leaders.


“At the Science Asylum, Nick Lucid is absurdly excited about science and math.”

He is intentionally choosing to be absurd. That’s not what Lett is trying to do.

I do not think VSauce is anywhere near as extreme in his demeanor as Lett.


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20 Jul 2022, 3:49 pm

My main focus was on the “evil babies” comment, but with Lett, I’d say that everything is fair game.

He certainly resembles other cult leaders who were also, decidedly, not normal.

If Lett was suffering from a condition which caused his quirks, I would avoid ridiculing them. But, happily, that’s not the case.


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