Outrage as ‘China propaganda’ star handed ESPYS honour

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cyberdad
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23 Jul 2022, 8:40 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
It's unlikely that any existing Amerind nations existed at the time those events might have occurred so there isn't a successor nation or state to take responsibility. This is related to the previous point but not entirely the same..


The The Mayan and Aztec practiced of a form of ritual sacrifice of defeated enemies on a mass scale. It's quite plausible that was awaited the Olmecs who's technology and culture appear to have been absorbed by the Maya.

I agree with your point (highlighted) because the same argument is used today to justify why whitefolk just dont give back all the land they acquired by conquest. The answer is a) the original victims are no longer alive and b) the current generation are not responsible for the sins of their fathers.

I know filipinos and Malays who talk of their own history, The original population of the Phillipines and Malaysia were dark skinned tribal people. Then the ancestors of the modern filipinos and Malays came from what is southern China and wiped out the indigenous peoples. This was repeated throughout south East Asia and the pacific islands.

The evidence for this happening in the Americas is now becoming apparent
https://www.science.org/content/article ... n-ancestry

It's easy to see the comparisons when you look at the heads of the Olmecs
Image

It's interesting when native tribes in north America first came across escaped slaves they basically enslaved them. In mordern Canada and north America white people are readily accepted as "native" but black people are rejected from admission to their tribes even when they have native ancestry. This to me suggests a deep intergenerational experience with people their ancestors came across. The same thinking I observed in south east asia where local people see light skin as desirable but reject dark skin. Africans often complain of racism in these countries from China/North Korea/Japan all the way south to the Phillipines and even among the Moari of NZ.



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23 Jul 2022, 8:52 pm

@Skineed wolf

This is really untrue what you say. Eileen Gu has the desirable characteristics that modern Chinese women want. I have watched a number of documentaries on the plastic surgery industry in China which set to be worth $200 Billion by 2030 making it easily one of the largest domestic expenditure in the Chinese beauty industry. The surgeons highlight that women want exactly the same thing in China (this repeated in South Korea and Japan) which is a pointy longer nose, prominent chin, less pronounced cheek bones, reducing skin tan and opening eyelids. There's no secret they want to look like Europeans. There is a huge industry in China for eurasian models and actresses who combine European and Asian look because it is the look desired by women.

If people in China hate Eileen Gu it's because they are probably jealous of her :lol:



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23 Jul 2022, 10:16 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
It's unlikely that any existing Amerind nations existed at the time those events might have occurred so there isn't a successor nation or state to take responsibility. This is related to the previous point but not entirely the same..


The The Mayan and Aztec practiced of a form of ritual sacrifice of defeated enemies on a mass scale. It's quite plausible that was awaited the Olmecs who's technology and culture appear to have been absorbed by the Maya.

I agree with your point (highlighted) because the same argument is used today to justify why whitefolk just dont give back all the land they acquired by conquest. The answer is a) the original victims are no longer alive and b) the current generation are not responsible for the sins of their fathers.

I know filipinos and Malays who talk of their own history, The original population of the Phillipines and Malaysia were dark skinned tribal people. Then the ancestors of the modern filipinos and Malays came from what is southern China and wiped out the indigenous peoples. This was repeated throughout south East Asia and the pacific islands.

The evidence for this happening in the Americas is now becoming apparent
https://www.science.org/content/article ... n-ancestry

It's easy to see the comparisons when you look at the heads of the Olmecs
Image

It's interesting when native tribes in north America first came across escaped slaves they basically enslaved them. In mordern Canada and north America white people are readily accepted as "native" but black people are rejected from admission to their tribes even when they have native ancestry. This to me suggests a deep intergenerational experience with people their ancestors came across. The same thinking I observed in south east asia where local people see light skin as desirable but reject dark skin. Africans often complain of racism in these countries from China/North Korea/Japan all the way south to the Phillipines and even among the Moari of NZ.


For starters your article only is only discussing South America. It explicitly concedes that it's findings are not relevant to central or north American peoples.

Quote:
One unanswered question is why the Y signal hasn't turned up in any North or Central American Indigenous groups.


Beyond that, genetic mixing isn't indicative of genocide, just contact.
Further, are we to ignore the possibility that Olmec art might just be stylized? It's not as though stylized depictions aren't common throughout practically everyone's history.

It kinda just seems like you got butthurt and tried to handwave what provoked it with a well, everyone's done it a little bit defence despite it really serving no purpose.


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23 Jul 2022, 10:23 pm

cyberdad wrote:
It's interesting when native tribes in north America first came across escaped slaves they basically enslaved them. In mordern Canada and north America white people are readily accepted as "native" but black people are rejected from admission to their tribes even when they have native ancestry. This to me suggests a deep intergenerational experience with people their ancestors came across. The same thinking I observed in south east asia where local people see light skin as desirable but reject dark skin. Africans often complain of racism in these countries from China/North Korea/Japan all the way south to the Phillipines and even among the Moari of NZ.

Because more outdoor work will make the skin darker, at least for "yellow"(If need to explain, Native Americans can also be described as "yellow"). This meant poverty in the pre industrial era. And people want to look richer. This is no different from Europe before the beginning of colonization.

The change of popular elements in the West will come after the industrial revolution. More low-end work is carried out indoors. At that time, the lack of sun exposure was more likely due to the lack of holidays, a new indicator of poverty.
The history of industrialization in Asia is not long. At the same time, white colonists and yearning for developed countries (mostly white countries) are also a thing.


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Last edited by SkinnedWolf on 23 Jul 2022, 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
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23 Jul 2022, 10:36 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
It kinda just seems like you got butthurt and tried to handwave what provoked it with a well, everyone's done it a little bit defence despite it really serving no purpose.


I am suggesting that the Siberian tribes who entered north American came across earlier peoples who were already settled there. Unlike the aboriginal peoples of melanesia and Australia the cultures that entered through Alaska carried with them a warrior tradition and engaged in warfare. Focusing on north America there were the descendants of the Siberians - tribes such as the Carib who engaged in complete annihilation of the tribes they came across and enslavement of women. This type of cultural interaction is also witnesses among the mesoamericans namely Aztec, Maya and further south the Inca.

This is precisely the same interactions that happened when South Chinese population groups moved into south east asia and the pacific. I am certain archaeology will demonstrate this happened in north America.



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23 Jul 2022, 10:45 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
Because more outdoor work will make the skin darker, at least for "yellow". This meant poverty in the pre industrial era. And people want to look richer. This is no different from Europe before the beginning of colonization.


Colorism in the modern context is the internalisation of European ideals of beauty is not the same as pre-colonial ideals. Precolonial peoples in East Asia made a distinction on colour based on the propensity to tan. This represents a separation of migrant "Han" type people who were lighter skinned than the people they came across in Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand and elswhere. The ruling class are always less intermixed than the vanquished. The ruling class live in palaces whereas the defeated must plough the fields.

This is why Eileen Gu's appearance is more readily desired in China whereas Naomi Osaka's look is not desired in Japan.



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23 Jul 2022, 10:53 pm

cyberdad wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
Because more outdoor work will make the skin darker, at least for "yellow". This meant poverty in the pre industrial era. And people want to look richer. This is no different from Europe before the beginning of colonization.


Colorism in the modern context is the internalisation of European ideals of beauty is not the same as pre-colonial ideals. Precolonial peoples in East Asia made a distinction on colour based on the propensity to tan. This represents a separation of migrant "Han" type people who were lighter skinned than the people they came across in Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand and elswhere. The ruling class are always less intermixed than the vanquished. The ruling class live in palaces whereas the defeated must plough the fields.

This is why Eileen Gu's appearance is more readily desired in China whereas Naomi Osaka's look is not desired in Japan.

Our skin color often changes. Unless there is careful protection, we cannot maintain the skin color we were born with.
The main influencing factor of the received sunlight.
I met a construction worker. Before I got closer to him, I thought he was black. But he is actually 100% Chinese.

The appearance with more typical Siberian characteristics is not attractive to the Chinese, nor is it typical of Southeast Asia.

And we think Eileen Gu is quite... Ugly. And somehow, she looks at least twice her actual age.

However, things are not simple.
This is one of the most attractive men among Chinese girls. A Tibetan star. His brown seems to be part of the attraction.
(By the way, he can hardly speak Mandarin)
Image


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Last edited by SkinnedWolf on 23 Jul 2022, 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
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23 Jul 2022, 10:59 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
No! Our skin color often changes. Unless there is careful protection, we cannot maintain the skin color we were born with.
The main influencing factor of the received sunlight.
I met a construction worker. Before I got closer to him, I thought he was black. But he is actually 100% Chinese.

The appearance with more typical Siberian characteristics is not attractive to the Chinese, nor is it typical of Southeast Asia.

And we think Eileen Gu is quite... Ugly. And somehow, she looks at least twice her actual age.


You do know the Han are not indigenous to southern China? they migrated into these regions several thousand years ago. Just like the ancestors of the japanese who migrated into the islands that became Japan they both came across darker skinned indigenous people. The level of intermixing denotes the class status in both Japan and China. This explains why some Chinese tan in the sun (like your construction worker). My neighbours are Chinese from Beijing and they do not tan at all even summer.

I will agree that Eileen Gu may not appeal to all Chinese men but her look is desirable in China at the moment especially for women.



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23 Jul 2022, 11:08 pm

cyberdad wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
No! Our skin color often changes. Unless there is careful protection, we cannot maintain the skin color we were born with.
The main influencing factor of the received sunlight.
I met a construction worker. Before I got closer to him, I thought he was black. But he is actually 100% Chinese.

The appearance with more typical Siberian characteristics is not attractive to the Chinese, nor is it typical of Southeast Asia.

And we think Eileen Gu is quite... Ugly. And somehow, she looks at least twice her actual age.


You do know the Han are not indigenous to southern China? they migrated into these regions several thousand years ago. Just like the ancestors of the japanese who migrated into the islands that became Japan they both came across darker skinned indigenous people. The level of intermixing denotes the class status in both Japan and China. This explains why some Chinese tan in the sun (like your construction worker). My neighbours are Chinese from Beijing and they do not tan at all even summer.

I will agree that Eileen Gu may not appeal to all Chinese men but her look is desirable in China at the moment especially for women.

When talking about someone's sexual attraction, my view is more representative of women...

I am indigenous of southwest China. Of course, I know that the Han is not indigenous to southwest China.
Others in Southeast China are described as indigenous Han people, where some "dialects" have suspicious connections with Chinese.

I have lived in Beijing for six years. The ethnic groups in Beijing are quite complex, Even those who call themselves Han. The people you know don't represent most Beijingers at all. If you are looking for a "pure Han", you should not look for them in Beijing.
I mean, is there less demand for whitening and sunscreen cosmetics in the north?


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Last edited by SkinnedWolf on 23 Jul 2022, 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
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23 Jul 2022, 11:15 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
I have lived in Beijing for six years. The ethnic groups in Beijing are quite complex, Even those who call themselves Han. The people you know don't represent most Beijingers at all. If you are looking for a "pure Han", you should not look for them in Beijing.
I mean, is there less demand for whitening and sunscreen cosmetics in the north?


China experienced population migration similar to Europe. Around 3000 years ago people from northern Europe and norther China who evolved little melanin to cope with colder climate started migrating southward. The conditions favoured warlike behaviour and military expansion to obtain resources from less warlike people in the south, The ancestors of modern Europeans are mix of these groups and original inhabitants. The ancestors of the northern Chinese migrated into southern China and the ancestors of the mongolian peoples occupied Korea and Japan.



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23 Jul 2022, 11:34 pm

cyberdad wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
I have lived in Beijing for six years. The ethnic groups in Beijing are quite complex, Even those who call themselves Han. The people you know don't represent most Beijingers at all. If you are looking for a "pure Han", you should not look for them in Beijing.
I mean, is there less demand for whitening and sunscreen cosmetics in the north?


China experienced population migration similar to Europe. Around 3000 years ago people from northern Europe and norther China who evolved little melanin to cope with colder climate started migrating southward. The conditions favoured warlike behaviour and military expansion to obtain resources from less warlike people in the south, The ancestors of modern Europeans are mix of these groups and original inhabitants. The ancestors of the northern Chinese migrated into southern China and the ancestors of the mongolian peoples occupied Korea and Japan.

...fair is often used to describe girls south of the Yangtze River. For most of Chinese history, the south of the Yangtze River was the economic center.
The bad weather in the north makes the unprotected people there look black and red...

There were many battles between nomads in the north and the Han nationality. At the same time, somehow, the Han people think they look noble?

Image
A Shaanxi farmer

And somehow, you seem to be obsessed with the concept that "East Asians don't think they're come from Africa".
The following are from WIKI "Multiregional origin of modern humans" Chinese version.
https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hant/%E4%BA%BA%E9%A1%9E%E5%A4%9A%E5%9C%B0%E8%B5%B7%E6%BA%90%E8%AA%AA
Quote:
Multiregional origin of modern humans is a scientific model used to explain human evolution. The modern version of this theory is called multiregional evolution, multiregional hypothesis or polycentric evolution, Wu Xinzhi and other Chinese scholars generally call it 多地區進化說.
...
The multi region hypothesis was first proposed by American anthropologists Milford H. wolfoff, Alan Thorne and Chinese anthropologist Wu Xinzhi in 1984, and was revised by some scholars in 2003. In the revised form, it is similar to the assimilation model.
...
The theory also believes that human beings originated in Africa, which only gives gene exchange a more important position.
...
The people who came out of Africa 50000 years ago did not completely replace the early humans in other regions (these early humans also originated in Africa), but had genetic exchanges with early humans to jointly shape modern humans. This theory is supported by fossil evidence, archaeological evidence and some genetic evidence. Scholars who support this theory believe that human evolution is more complex than the simple "complete replacement" model believed by the theory of single origin.


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24 Jul 2022, 1:53 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
[Multiregional origin of modern humans is a scientific model used to explain human evolution. The modern version of this theory is called multiregional evolution, multiregional hypothesis or polycentric evolution, Wu Xinzhi and other Chinese scholars generally call it 多地區進化說.
...
The multi region hypothesis was first proposed by American anthropologists Milford H. wolfoff, Alan Thorne and Chinese anthropologist Wu Xinzhi in 1984, and was revised by some scholars in 2003. In the revised form, it is similar to the assimilation model.
...
The theory also believes that human beings originated in Africa, which only gives gene exchange a more important position.


A lot of the research contesting the "out of Africa" hypothesis has emanated from China
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... n-origins/



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24 Jul 2022, 2:05 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
...fair is often used to describe girls south of the Yangtze River. For most of Chinese history, the south of the Yangtze River was the economic center.
The bad weather in the north makes the unprotected people there look black and red...

There were many battles between nomads in the north and the Han nationality. At the same time, somehow, the Han people think they look noble?

Image
A Shaanxi farmer]


You are making a simple assumption that migration happened in one batch, As with Europe, central, western and south Asia the migration from the north happened in waves.

It's now established that the caucasians evolved in far north east asia and are genetically closer to mongols and Siberians (the same groups who swept into north America). The populations living in the far north developed two adaptations to help with the ice and cold. The first is already know which is light skin to absorb vitamin D. The second is the epicanthal fold.

The populations who migrated west lost the epicanthal fold and evolved light coloured eyes and long noses. Phylogenetic trees of Y-STR makers and Mt genes suggest that the Europeans interbred with East Asians until ∼41,000 years ago. On the other hand, East Asians diverged from their African acestors ∼55,000 years ago. Therefore, we suggest that the European and East Asian lineages diverged ∼41,000 years ago.
https://academic.oup.com/gbe/article/6/3/466/576141

According to wikipaedia -The epicanthic fold is often associated with greater levels of fat deposition around the eyeball. The adipose tissue is thought to provide greater insulation for the eye and sinuses from the effects of cold, especially from freezing winds, and to represent an adaptation to cold climates.

The characteristic passed in waves to the south into south China, South east Asia, Pacific and into north/south America. There is no hiding it.



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24 Jul 2022, 8:53 am

cyberdad wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
[Multiregional origin of modern humans is a scientific model used to explain human evolution. The modern version of this theory is called multiregional evolution, multiregional hypothesis or polycentric evolution, Wu Xinzhi and other Chinese scholars generally call it 多地區進化說.
...
The multi region hypothesis was first proposed by American anthropologists Milford H. wolfoff, Alan Thorne and Chinese anthropologist Wu Xinzhi in 1984, and was revised by some scholars in 2003. In the revised form, it is similar to the assimilation model.
...
The theory also believes that human beings originated in Africa, which only gives gene exchange a more important position.


A lot of the research contesting the "out of Africa" hypothesis has emanated from China
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... n-origins/

Yes, a few scholars insist on continuous evolution (As in any country, there will be some non-mainstream scholars, and China does have a large number of non-Homo sapiens fossils) They are obviously more newsworthy (rather than actual influence).
but...As mentioned in the article
Quote:
But the tale of Peking Man has haunted generations of Chinese researchers, who have struggled to understand its relationship to modern humans. “It's a story without an ending,” says Wu Xinzhi, a palaeontologist at the Chinese Academy of Sciences' Institute of Vertebrate Paleontology and Paleoanthropology (IVPP) in Beijing. They wonder whether the descendants of Peking Man and fellow members of the species Homo erectus died out or evolved into a more modern species, and whether they contributed to the gene pool of China today.

This is the research direction of the Chinese Academy of Sciences (the core scientific research institution in China).

Some non mainstream historians in South Korea believe that Koreans once conquered and enslaved northern China...But this does not mean that South Korea is suppressing serious academic opinions or that South Korean history is extremely unreliable.


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Last edited by SkinnedWolf on 24 Jul 2022, 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

SkinnedWolf
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24 Jul 2022, 8:57 am

cyberdad wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
...fair is often used to describe girls south of the Yangtze River. For most of Chinese history, the south of the Yangtze River was the economic center.
The bad weather in the north makes the unprotected people there look black and red...

There were many battles between nomads in the north and the Han nationality. At the same time, somehow, the Han people think they look noble?

Image
A Shaanxi farmer]


You are making a simple assumption that migration happened in one batch, As with Europe, central, western and south Asia the migration from the north happened in waves.

It's now established that the caucasians evolved in far north east asia and are genetically closer to mongols and Siberians (the same groups who swept into north America). The populations living in the far north developed two adaptations to help with the ice and cold. The first is already know which is light skin to absorb vitamin D. The second is the epicanthal fold.

The populations who migrated west lost the epicanthal fold and evolved light coloured eyes and long noses. Phylogenetic trees of Y-STR makers and Mt genes suggest that the Europeans interbred with East Asians until ∼41,000 years ago. On the other hand, East Asians diverged from their African acestors ∼55,000 years ago. Therefore, we suggest that the European and East Asian lineages diverged ∼41,000 years ago.
https://academic.oup.com/gbe/article/6/3/466/576141

According to wikipaedia -The epicanthic fold is often associated with greater levels of fat deposition around the eyeball. The adipose tissue is thought to provide greater insulation for the eye and sinuses from the effects of cold, especially from freezing winds, and to represent an adaptation to cold climates.

The characteristic passed in waves to the south into south China, South east Asia, Pacific and into north/south America. There is no hiding it.

I didn't deny this. In fact, I am a firm defender of the "Chinese come from the North theory".

But what is the logical connection between this and its greater influence on skin color than that of postnatal sun exposure?

For East Asians, the influence of congenital skin color is almost negligible compared with living environment and habits. Unless people attach great importance to sunscreen, comparisons will be made on the basis of innate skin color at this time - but this period needs to be found after industrialization.

The node that really makes East Asians think "this guy is naturally too brown to be attractive" needs to be searched from modern Southeast Asin(and part of Yunnan, Guangxi and Guangdong, but the Han has gained influence there for no more than 2000 years.)

Annual average total sunshine hours:
Image
Annual average total direct radiation:This explains why Tibetans look quite brown
Image


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24 Jul 2022, 4:43 pm

If you look at ancient chinese paintings as far back as 2000 years ago the image of the fair skinned Han beauty was portrayed

Image

This did not emerge overnight.