Outrage as ‘China propaganda’ star handed ESPYS honour

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SkinnedWolf
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24 Jul 2022, 4:48 pm

cyberdad wrote:
If you look at ancient chinese paintings as far back as 2000 years ago the image of the fair skinned Han beauty was portrayed

Image

This did not emerge overnight.

Oh, thank you for telling me what I emphasized.

What I describe is the difference in skin color caused by the differences in the living habits of aristocrats and civilians in the pre industrial era, which leads to skin color preference.
The ruling class does not need to work outdoors, so the skin is lighter.


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24 Jul 2022, 4:52 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
Annual average total sunshine hours:
Image
Annual average total direct radiation:This explains why Tibetans look quite brown
Image


You need to check the UV exposure further north in Mongolia and northern Siberia if you want to see where this dominant phenotype evolved.

To me this region further north is very important as its also where the western phenotype evolved as well.

As resources are scarcer in the colder regions it naturally selected for more aggressive and warlike groups who over thousands of years kept moving further and further south. The same exact pattern happened in Europe,



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24 Jul 2022, 4:56 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
If you look at ancient chinese paintings as far back as 2000 years ago the image of the fair skinned Han beauty was portrayed

Image

This did not emerge overnight.

Oh, thank you for telling me what I emphasized.

What I describe is the difference in skin color caused by the differences in the living habits of aristocrats and civilians in the pre industrial era, which leads to skin color preference.
The ruling class does not need to work outdoors, so the skin is lighter.


Yes but you missed my point, The reason for this difference is the same as ancient Egypt. In Egypt immigrants came from western Asia and became the ruling class but intermixed somewhat with the local Africans. The rulers are therefore naturally lighter skinned than those who work outside.

A simple rule of thumb, if your population is naturally dark skinned as most native peoples closer to the equator are, then it makes no difference whether they dwell indoors or outdoors. The phenomenon you are describing is due to waves of northern people who became overlords of China by the time of the 1st emperor.



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24 Jul 2022, 5:06 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Yes but you missed my point, The reason for this difference is the same as ancient Egypt. In Egypt immigrants came from western Asia and became the ruling class but intermixed somewhat with the local Africans. The rulers are therefore naturally lighter skinned than those who work outside.

A simple rule of thumb, if your population is naturally dark skinned as most native peoples closer to the equator are, then it makes no difference whether they dwell indoors or outdoors. The phenomenon you are describing is due to waves of northern people who became overlords of China by the time of the 1st emperor.

you missed my point
Have you ever met East Asians in East Asia?

In the pre industrial era, compared with living habits and sunshine in living areas, the influence of birth skin color on the actual skin color is irrelevant.

This is why Tibetans, closely related to the Han, living on the Qinghai Tibet Plateau, look much more brown than the Han.
When a Tibetan go to live in the plains and a Han go to live in the Qinghai Tibet Plateau, their skin colors exchange with each other.

When a person looks brown, the subconscious reaction of East Asians is that this guy has been exposed to too much sun and needs to pay attention to sunscreen/"Avoid the sunlight". If an acquaintance looks much brown than the last time they met, people will ask, "what have you done recently?"“
White people always don't seem to understand this. Our skin color will change at different times of the year. When you have to work outdoors, you will soon look quite brown. But if you stop working outdoors, you will return to your birth color that winter. However, this resilience decreases with age, so most old farmers are brown.
The East Asians living in the West look quite strange to us for don't pay attention to "Avoid the sunlight".

Image
In the Qing Dynasty, the rich girl and her servants.


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25 Jul 2022, 2:39 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
White people always don't seem to understand this. Our skin color will change at different times of the year. When you have to work outdoors, you will soon look quite brown. But if you stop working outdoors, you will return to your birth color that winter. However, this resilience decreases with age, so most old farmers are brown.


I can't speak for everyone but I certainly understand this to be linked a gene that is activated to produce melanin when exposed to heavy sun exposure. Not surprisingly souther Europeans, Northern Indians. people from Middle east all become brown when in the sun but then revert to a lighter complexion in the winter.

But I wonder how widespread this is? I lived in Malaysia and the majority of the Chinese are Cantonese and they grow up exposed to the harsh tropical sun from childhood yet most of them look relatively light skinned to me.



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25 Jul 2022, 1:12 pm

cyberdad wrote:
But I wonder how widespread this is? I lived in Malaysia and the majority of the Chinese are Cantonese and they grow up exposed to the harsh tropical sun from childhood yet most of them look relatively light skinned to me.

"Beauty" evaluation criteria about white makes up for all the ugly
BBC Chinese language. Malaysian Chinese.
Note: in Chinese, when describing skin color, black = dark/Brown, white = light.
Quote:
Since the ancient proverbs have been spread to this day, there must be a mass base. Asians generally believe that white is beauty. Looking back at the troubles of growth, Malaysian "black girls" are pleased to find that fashion is changing.

Have you ever heard of "candle Princess"? No, this is not a little-known fairy tale.

In Malaysia, candle princess is talking about girls who can't stand long hours in the sun. It's like a candle that melts when it's too hot.

Candle Princess originated from the ancient Malaysian folklore. Now this word is used to refer to people who hide from the sun like from the plague. They are afraid of tanning.

No one has ever called me this nickname, but of course, I know many candle princesses. These people can see at a glance: the little parasol is always on the body, just like an amulet, the patron saint of all white girls.

For them, outdoor sports such as basketball and volleyball are taboo items, and they must not participate. They prefer indoor sports, such as table tennis.

I once had a good friend of candle princess. If we go out together, once we want to walk into the sun, she will immediately hold an umbrella!

When I was at school, I used to find it funny to see how other girls could make sure that no ray of sunshine fell on their skin when they walked across our campus. Later I learned that in Malaysia, white skin has a lot more advantages than black skin! After understanding this theory, I don't think the parasol is funny anymore.

There is no whitest, only whiter(Note: it means that the pursuit of white is endless)

In Asia, preference for a whiter complexion is far more related to class than to race. Like many other societies around the world, Malaysia has the same prejudice as the evil queen in Snow White: we are obsessed with white skin!

In the Malaysian Chinese community, Bai has long been regarded as beautiful. I believe many Malays and Indians must feel the same way.

Since ancient times, people with dark skin are mostly farmers and manual workers. The rich don't have to work in the fields, and of course, they are even whiter.

The media can't help. They usually prefer actors with so-called "Pan Asian looks" and whiter skin. Whitening skin care products often become hot sellers.

When I was in high school, I was on the school basketball team and was relatively tanned. I remember once, just after a very fierce game, I walked into the classroom with my teammates. A classmate began to laugh and called us "Africa". The other students joined the gang and laughed and shouted hysterically.

We didn't stop playing basketball because we like playing basketball very much. But after that, I began to try to avoid taking pictures. Standing beside my friends with "ordinary" skin color, I will feel ugly.

In addition, to make matters worse, my own family often adhere to similar views. Every time I go back to a family party, the "comments" of my relatives always include the following two points: am I fat or thin, am I black or white.

Many Asians may be familiar with such an experience. However, unfortunately, their "praise" will make me feel that my own value is affirmed. If I fail to meet their expectations, I will feel very ashamed.

It was not until a few years ago that I finally got rid of this cycle of self loathing. I have friends who are more positive and encourage others; I have that he, every day he will say I am beautiful, he really thinks I am beautiful. Gradually, I also began to believe.

Indeed, the word candle Princess itself is not entirely praise, but also slightly despised. I saw through the candle Princess: too delicate, must be spoiled, not strong enough.

Advertising is also part of popular culture. Recently, in an advertisement broadcast by Malaysian television, there was a model hiding from the sun. The voice said, "the sun will not only damage your appearance and skin, but also hurt your confidence! Use x brand sunscreen to give yourself whiter and healthier skin!"

However, compared with previous advertisements, this has made significant progress. The original advertisement will publicly announce that white skin is "charming".

There are still many candle princesses in Malaysia, but there are also slight signs that the evaluation criteria for beautiful women may begin to change.

We don't like white people equating our pursuit of "our own" light skin color with the pursuit of white race/European.
It must be one thing that a small number of people have a special preference for European.
But in other cases, what we call white is not the same as white race/European. The white skin of European is not the kind of white color we pursue to turn ourselves into.
For ethnic groups whose skin color changes easily, skin color represents class, not descent.

Image
The state of a typical male after long-term outdoor work. But there are still blacker/darker times. Notice that there are three colors on his body at the same time, representing three kinds of sunlight exposure level.
The Qinghai Tibet Plateau is a good testing environment. There is the most solar radiation.

When the skin color of East Asians is very light, they actually imply that other East Asians "I have the right to avoid those humble physical work. I have money and time to protect myself from the sun."

This will certainly make East Asians and African or European hybrids get different evaluations in East Asian society.
But beyond that, it has nothing to do with racism. It is only used to evaluate individuals with "Pan East Asian appearance".
In my impression, there are western cosmetics sold to East Asians. In order to avoid suspicion of racism, they avoid mentioning "whitening" in function, which seems very inexplicable to East Asians. Like, because what happens in other parts of the world makes our tradition of thousands of years need to be attacked.

When an East Asian praises another East Asian, "Wow, you are so white/light", they usually describe this:
Image

So we think that East Asians in western society often look very strange, as if they consciously want to look "yellow" and small eyes(and other rigid and exaggerated East Asian characteristics, just as they try to perform an East Asian in the imagination of Europeans.). And they don't want to look lighter/whiter, because this concept has been hijacked by "race" in western society.
So they sometimes seem to us to deliberately make themselves look ugly. This makes the unmixed Native Americans look closer to our compatriots than they do. Like, "performing imaginary East Asians" in East Asians' eyes is a very internalized racist act of insulting our compatriots, but somehow western society seems unable to pay attention to this. Therefore, East Asians in East Asian society are often estranged from more than two generations of East Asians in western society, at least in Chinese society and Japanese society.


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cyberdad
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25 Jul 2022, 4:30 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
We don't like white people equating our pursuit of "our own" light skin color with the pursuit of white race/European.
It must be one thing that a small number of people have a special preference for European.
But in other cases, what we call white is not the same as white race/European. The white skin of European is not the kind of white color we pursue to turn ourselves into..


Here I agree that your lived experience is more important than my observations. And you are correct, non-Chinese views do not supersede how you think/feel.

I am, however, trying to understand a topic that is impossible to discuss among western Europeans for whom race/identity is only seen through their eyes. When I was in school I witnessed an interaction between a Eurasian girl and an Indian boy. The girl was often bullied because her father was Chinese. But she (for some reason) would bully the Indian boy, Then one day a classmate who was Australian came up to both of them and told the girl "You have no right to call him (insert derogatory name for an Indian) when you are a (insert derogatory name for Chinese), She made it a point to ask this guy what gives him the right to call both of them names? he didn't know how to respond. In his mind both the Eurasian girl and the Indian boy were not Australians so only he had the right to call them names.

I also think of this incident because it reminds me that for however successful Eileen Gu is in America perhaps she doesn't feel American?



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25 Jul 2022, 4:47 pm

cyberdad wrote:
I am, however, trying to understand a topic that is impossible to discuss among western Europeans for whom race/identity is only seen through their eyes. When I was in school I witnessed an interaction between a Eurasian girl and an Indian boy. The girl was often bullied because her father was Chinese. But she (for some reason) would bully the Indian boy, Then one day a classmate who was Australian came up to both of them and told the girl "You have no right to call him (insert derogatory name for an Indian) when you are a (insert derogatory name for Chinese), She made it a point to ask this guy what gives him the right to call both of them names? he didn't know how to respond. In his mind both the Eurasian girl and the Indian boy were not Australians so only he had the right to call them names.

This story is very strange. These discriminatory name are either regarded as bad but tolerable, or they are intolerable. Applicable to anyone.
If that Eurasia calls an Indian boy a discriminatory name, she is wrong. But the reason is that discrimination should not be, not that she is not white/Australian (it's strange. Australians are not equal to whites. Although this may be a common usage, and not only whites think so).
But maybe the boy is just reminding the girl not to be racist, thinking that you will also suffer from racism.

cyberdad wrote:
I also think of this incident because it reminds me that for however successful Eileen Gu is in America perhaps she doesn't feel American?

I don't know what kind of race Gu looks like to whites.
To Chinese, she seems to be closer to the typical white than the typical Eurasia.

I don't know what Eurasia thinks. But for those East Asians who still use their other language, it seems that sometimes there is a great need to "prove loyalty" or "perform stereotypes".

Moreover, she is obvious from the perspective of China that she doesn't think she is Chinese.
Among Chinese people, those who don't like her mainly think about how the upper class can become world citizens to practice opportunism, rather than race or identity issues.


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25 Jul 2022, 4:59 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
But maybe the boy is just reminding the girl not to be racist, thinking that you will also suffer from racism.
.


This happened in 1980 which 42 years ago so I can tell you the Australian boy was racist toward both. The girl (who was very pretty) was perhaps wanting to be accepted by her classmates (she had many friends) and took part in bullying the Indian boy who I felt very sorry for because he had no friends.



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25 Jul 2022, 5:01 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
I don't know what kind of race Gu looks like to whites.
To Chinese, she seems to be closer to the typical white than the typical Eurasia.

I don't know what Eurasia thinks. But for those East Asians who still use their other language, it seems that sometimes there is a great need to "prove loyalty" or "perform stereotypes".

Moreover, she is obvious from the perspective of China that she doesn't think she is Chinese.
Among Chinese people, those who don't like her mainly think about how the upper class can become world citizens to practice opportunism, rather than race or identity issues.


It depends on the photo but she (Eileen Gu) looks a mix of both ethnicities. I can't speak for everyone she looks very pretty but in my mind she is not as beautiful as the Korean actress Claudia Kim who in my eyes is universally beautiful.



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25 Jul 2022, 6:07 pm

cyberdad wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
I don't know what kind of race Gu looks like to whites.
To Chinese, she seems to be closer to the typical white than the typical Eurasia.

I don't know what Eurasia thinks. But for those East Asians who still use their other language, it seems that sometimes there is a great need to "prove loyalty" or "perform stereotypes".

Moreover, she is obvious from the perspective of China that she doesn't think she is Chinese.
Among Chinese people, those who don't like her mainly think about how the upper class can become world citizens to practice opportunism, rather than race or identity issues.


It depends on the photo but she (Eileen Gu) looks a mix of both ethnicities. I can't speak for everyone she looks very pretty but in my mind she is not as beautiful as the Korean actress Claudia Kim who in my eyes is universally beautiful.

As an American I can tell you that Eileen Gu would be considered conventionally attractive by most Americans. I also don't think Americans really care much about skin color. Consider Zendaya who is possibly the most glamorous woman nowadays in the US and she isn't even remotely white.

Image


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25 Jul 2022, 6:42 pm

cyberdad wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
If you look at ancient chinese paintings as far back as 2000 years ago the image of the fair skinned Han beauty was portrayed

Image

This did not emerge overnight.

Oh, thank you for telling me what I emphasized.

What I describe is the difference in skin color caused by the differences in the living habits of aristocrats and civilians in the pre industrial era, which leads to skin color preference.
The ruling class does not need to work outdoors, so the skin is lighter.


Yes but you missed my point, The reason for this difference is the same as ancient Egypt. In Egypt immigrants came from western Asia and became the ruling class but intermixed somewhat with the local Africans. The rulers are therefore naturally lighter skinned than those who work outside.

A simple rule of thumb, if your population is naturally dark skinned as most native peoples closer to the equator are, then it makes no difference whether they dwell indoors or outdoors. The phenomenon you are describing is due to waves of northern people who became overlords of China by the time of the 1st emperor.


You're assuming it's always a racial thing and never based on tanning and that's flatly incorrect.

The pattern Skinned is referring to is typical of agricultural societies across Eurasia, whether or not any sort of ethnic strata might be contributing.


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25 Jul 2022, 6:43 pm

MaxE wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
I don't know what kind of race Gu looks like to whites.
To Chinese, she seems to be closer to the typical white than the typical Eurasia.

I don't know what Eurasia thinks. But for those East Asians who still use their other language, it seems that sometimes there is a great need to "prove loyalty" or "perform stereotypes".

Moreover, she is obvious from the perspective of China that she doesn't think she is Chinese.
Among Chinese people, those who don't like her mainly think about how the upper class can become world citizens to practice opportunism, rather than race or identity issues.


It depends on the photo but she (Eileen Gu) looks a mix of both ethnicities. I can't speak for everyone she looks very pretty but in my mind she is not as beautiful as the Korean actress Claudia Kim who in my eyes is universally beautiful.

As an American I can tell you that Eileen Gu would be considered conventionally attractive by most Americans. I also don't think Americans really care much about skin color. Consider Zendaya who is possibly the most glamorous woman nowadays in the US and she isn't even remotely white.

Image


Think of how long it took, but also...


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25 Jul 2022, 6:52 pm

MaxE wrote:
As an American I can tell you that Eileen Gu would be considered conventionally attractive by most Americans. I also don't think Americans really care much about skin color. Consider Zendaya who is possibly the most glamorous woman nowadays in the US and she isn't even remotely white.

Image

Ah, shock, isn't she?


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25 Jul 2022, 7:00 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
MaxE wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
I don't know what kind of race Gu looks like to whites.
To Chinese, she seems to be closer to the typical white than the typical Eurasia.

I don't know what Eurasia thinks. But for those East Asians who still use their other language, it seems that sometimes there is a great need to "prove loyalty" or "perform stereotypes".

Moreover, she is obvious from the perspective of China that she doesn't think she is Chinese.
Among Chinese people, those who don't like her mainly think about how the upper class can become world citizens to practice opportunism, rather than race or identity issues.


It depends on the photo but she (Eileen Gu) looks a mix of both ethnicities. I can't speak for everyone she looks very pretty but in my mind she is not as beautiful as the Korean actress Claudia Kim who in my eyes is universally beautiful.

As an American I can tell you that Eileen Gu would be considered conventionally attractive by most Americans. I also don't think Americans really care much about skin color. Consider Zendaya who is possibly the most glamorous woman nowadays in the US and she isn't even remotely white.

Image


Think of how long it took, but also...

This change is more likely due to industrialization. In the industrial era, work was done indoors, so that having time to spend holidays in the South and having darker skin became a symbol of the high class. So dark skin is no longer so offensive in western society.
(Although I am curious about the differences in skin color changes between Western Europeans and East Asians under solar radiation. Western Europeans seem to be more inclined to turn red than dark.)


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25 Jul 2022, 7:07 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
This change is more likely due to industrialization. In the industrial era, work was done indoors, so that having time to spend holidays in the South and having darker skin became a symbol of the high class. So dark skin is no longer so offensive in western society.
(Although I am curious about the differences in skin color changes between Western Europeans and East Asians under solar radiation. Western Europeans seem to be more inclined to turn red than dark.)


Agreed on that as well, once everyone works indoors the norm is likely to flip.

I think the Europeans and propensity to tanning varies. I definitely fit Anglo stereotypes, but if the initial exposure is gradual I tan quite a bit; my mom isn't mixed but tans more easily than anyone else in the family.

There do seem to be a few complexions that maybe don't tan at all though.


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