L & D - To What Extent Can We Discuss Gender Differences?

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The Grand Inquisitor
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01 Aug 2022, 1:20 am

Discussions centred around which gender has it better or worse at dating serve no useful purpose, and only divide people. I agree with the ruling to ban such discussions.

But it seems like we're now also not allowed to talk about differing average outcomes between heterosexual men and women as it relates to dating, and the reasons for those differences and trends, as doing so can be perceived by some as a "which gender has it better?" discussion.

So my question is, where is the line between examining and acknowledging social trends and different outcomes that come from them, and breaking this rule?

For instance, in response to somebody asserting that both genders have similar experiences with online dating, am I not allowed to say things like on average, the online dating profiles of one gender tend to receive more messages and engagement than that of the other gender? Even if I have reputably sourced data to substantiate that claim?

And if I'm not allowed to do that, how do I voice my disagreement with that claim? Do I have to just stay silent and let the other person's assertion go unchallenged despite it being incorrect?

Am I not allowed to talk about how one gender is disproportionately impacted by all manners of domestic and sexual abuse in relation to the other?

Am I not allowed to talk about a study that found the virginity rates for young adults of one gender are drastically rising compared to that of members of the other gender?

Can I not talk about how one gender tends to get shamed for virginity while the other tends to get shamed for promiscuity?

At what point does examining differing average outcomes between genders become a "who has it better" discussion?

Where is that line?



kraftiekortie
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01 Aug 2022, 6:14 am

Studies about social science don’t mean a damn thing to me.

People tend to use them as an excuse to not continue trying.

Results of social science studies don’t apply to me.

Yes, we have double standards in this society—such as women being lambasted for promiscuity, while men aren’t.

Gender politics is a minefield. I don’t bother with it.

And expressing gender generalities is useless—because most don’t apply to me. And most don’t apply to individual women, either.

Both men and women get irritated when somebody assumes something about an individual person, based upon generalities which form the results of social science studies.

So what if the results of social science studies say one thing. Social science studies create a composite person which probably doesn’t apply to most people.

It’s better if you discuss yourself without referring to social science studies. They are “applied science,” rather than “hard science.”

And don’t assume a man or woman has had the experience in life which was supposedly “preordained” via the results of social science studies.

Just because “45% of autistic people remain virgins at age 30” doesn’t mean you will remain a virgin at age 30. Thinking that you’re the result of social science studies will probably provide “confirmation bias” for you, so that you still remain a virgin at age 30.

The best thing is to be you, not a composite of a social science study.



Fnord
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01 Aug 2022, 8:24 am

Why would anyone want to discuss "Gender Differences", anyway?  Before you post anything on the topic of "Gender Differences", you should probably first ask yourself the following questions:

• Is it True?
• Is it Necessary?
• Is it Helpful?

If the answer is 'No' to any of these questions, then maybe what you want to post about "Gender Differences" is better left unposted.  So if what you want to post relies on false stereotypes, personal opinions, and irrelevant data, it likely does not belong on this website.


 Reference 



TwilightPrincess
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01 Aug 2022, 8:39 am

Quote:
For instance, in response to somebody asserting that both genders have similar experiences with online dating, am I not allowed to say things like on average, the online dating profiles of one gender tend to receive more messages and engagement than that of the other gender? Even if I have reputably sourced data to substantiate that claim?


The problem is that when this happens on WP, as it has for many years, it inevitably turns into: women have it easier when it comes to dating. Then women who struggle feel excluded and that their experience has been belittled. In such circumstances, L&D seems more like a boys’ club even though many women here struggle similarly and need support.

This does not need to be about gender at all. It’s just unnecessary. Struggling to find love is a human problem that includes both genders, and it deserves to be handled in an inclusive way.

Perhaps the main takeaway is that you should minimize your time spent on online dating apps/forums because it’s not working (nor has it for many, many others).


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Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 01 Aug 2022, 8:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

TwilightPrincess
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01 Aug 2022, 8:46 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Studies about social science don’t mean a damn thing to me.

People tend to use them as an excuse to not continue trying.

Results of social science studies don’t apply to me.

Yes, we have double standards in this society—such as women being lambasted for promiscuity, while men aren’t.

Gender politics is a minefield. I don’t bother with it.

And expressing gender generalities is useless—because most don’t apply to me. And most don’t apply to individual women, either.

Both men and women get irritated when somebody assumes something about an individual person, based upon generalities which form the results of social science studies.

So what if the results of social science studies say one thing. Social science studies create a composite person which probably doesn’t apply to most people.

It’s better if you discuss yourself without referring to social science studies. They are “applied science,” rather than “hard science.”

And don’t assume a man or woman has had the experience in life which was supposedly “preordained” via the results of social science studies.

Just because “45% of autistic people remain virgins at age 30” doesn’t mean you will remain a virgin at age 30. Thinking that you’re the result of social science studies will probably provide “confirmation bias” for you, so that you still remain a virgin at age 30.

The best thing is to be you, not a composite of a social science study.


Absolutely this.


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Fnord
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01 Aug 2022, 8:50 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
Struggling to find love is a human problem that includes both genders, and it deserves to be handled in an inclusive way.
↑ This.

We all have problems, and whining because "they have it easier" does not solve any of them.

It is better to work on self-improvement than to wallow in self-pity while blaming others.



kraftiekortie
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01 Aug 2022, 9:08 am

If all genders treated everyone like people, rather than a member of a particular gender, we would go a long way.

Women shouldn't be a mystery to men. Men shouldn't be a mystery to women. Nonbinary people shouldn't be a mystery to men and women, etc.



The Grand Inquisitor
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01 Aug 2022, 9:11 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Studies about social science don’t mean a damn thing to me.

People tend to use them as an excuse to not continue trying.

Results of social science studies don’t apply to me.

Yes, we have double standards in this society—such as women being lambasted for promiscuity, while men aren’t.

Gender politics is a minefield. I don’t bother with it.

And expressing gender generalities is useless—because most don’t apply to me. And most don’t apply to individual women, either.

Both men and women get irritated when somebody assumes something about an individual person, based upon generalities which form the results of social science studies.

So what if the results of social science studies say one thing. Social science studies create a composite person which probably doesn’t apply to most people.

It’s better if you discuss yourself without referring to social science studies. They are “applied science,” rather than “hard science.”

And don’t assume a man or woman has had the experience in life which was supposedly “preordained” via the results of social science studies.

Just because “45% of autistic people remain virgins at age 30” doesn’t mean you will remain a virgin at age 30. Thinking that you’re the result of social science studies will probably provide “confirmation bias” for you, so that you still remain a virgin at age 30.

The best thing is to be you, not a composite of a social science study.

It's not about finding statistics and trends and then choosing to conform to them or to take them as gospel.

I want to learn more about the factors surrounding why I'm in the position I'm in so I can find a way to get out of it. I feel powerless to affect change at the moment, but I really need things to change. How else am I supposed to get closer to my desired outcome?



The Grand Inquisitor
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01 Aug 2022, 9:16 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
Perhaps the main takeaway is that you should minimize your time spent on online dating apps/forums because it’s not working (nor has it for many, many others).

I haven't used online dating in a few years now, but my experiences with it left scars on my self-esteem.

Where does restricting my time on forums come into the equation? I don't post that much as it is.

It's not working, but nothing works, and my dating issues continue to plague me. What would you recommend that I do instead?



TwilightPrincess
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01 Aug 2022, 9:19 pm

Quote:
It's not about finding statistics and trends and then choosing to conform to them or to take them as gospel.

I want to learn more about the factors surrounding why I'm in the position I'm in so I can find a way to get out of it. I feel powerless to affect change at the moment, but I really need things to change. How else am I supposed to get closer to my desired outcome?


There’s lots of advice to be found on here.

If discussing the supposed factors haven’t worked in the past, why would they work now?

This topic has been talked about ad nauseam for years. It’s time to give it a rest and focus on productive advice and moving forward.


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The Grand Inquisitor
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01 Aug 2022, 9:25 pm

Fnord wrote:
We all have problems, and whining because "they have it easier" does not solve any of them.

Then it's just as well that I'm not doing that or advocating for it.

Fnord wrote:
It is better to work on self-improvement than to wallow in self-pity while blaming others.

Where does blame enter the equation? Who is blaming whom for what?

Self-improvement is something everybody should be working on, but it doesn't always magically make one able to find a partner. It can improve one's chances, but it can only help so much when one lacks opportunities to meet suitable women.



The Grand Inquisitor
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01 Aug 2022, 9:30 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
There’s lots of advice to be found on here.

If discussing the supposed factors haven’t worked in the past, why would they work now?

This topic has been talked about ad nauseam for years. It’s time to give it a rest and focus on productive advice and moving forward.

Discussing and thinking about the factors hasn't resulted in the outcome I want, but doing so has progressively demystified why I'm in this situation, and what's going on. That is worthwhile as far as I'm concerned.

I don't really have any actionable advice to heed. The first problem is sparse opportunities to meet people. Online dating isn't viable, interest groups haven't worked, and I don't have a circle of friends to meet people through.

The only place I generally come into contact with women around my age is at the trivias I help host, and while there is someone who's caught my eye at one of them, there's no good way to get to know her or see if she's interested.



Last edited by The Grand Inquisitor on 01 Aug 2022, 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TwilightPrincess
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01 Aug 2022, 9:35 pm

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
It's not working, but nothing works, and my dating issues continue to plague me. What would you recommend that I do instead?


Read and follow the advice that’s been given in L&D. You know there’s a lot of it.

I think it’s important to branch out and find ways to meet new people. Try to form friendships. Get involved in something you haven’t done before.

Here’s a quote from Fnord:

Quote:
Here is what I suggest (a.k.a., "How I Met My Wife"):

• Dress yourself in "mainstream" fashion (not haute couture, just "everyman" office clothes).
• Bathe and shave daily, brush and floss at least twice daily.
• Earn a university degree, and find appropriate employment.
• Take acting lessons, dance lessons, and music lessons.
• Attend religious services on a regular basis.
• Read extensively on many topics.
• Learn to drive, and buy a car (or a motorcycle!).
• When a woman does speak to you, smile, make eye contact, nod your head often, and listen to what she says.

Remember, these are only suggestions. This is also NOT an "All-Or-Nothing" list; but the more of these suggestions you do for yourself, the better your chances will be.


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TwilightPrincess
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01 Aug 2022, 9:39 pm

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
There’s lots of advice to be found on here.

If discussing the supposed factors haven’t worked in the past, why would they work now?

This topic has been talked about ad nauseam for years. It’s time to give it a rest and focus on productive advice and moving forward.

Discussing and thinking about the factors hasn't resulted in the outcome I want, but doing so has progressively demystified why I'm in this situation, and what's going on. That is worthwhile as far as I'm concerned.


There are other sites in which you can engage in the type of dialogue you are suggesting, but from what I’ve observed, it helps no one.

It leads to whining, not proactive improvement and progress.


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TwilightPrincess
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01 Aug 2022, 9:48 pm

I can commiserate with you. It’s tough to be in your shoes. I didn’t have my first real relationship until I was 25, and we never slept together. I know what it’s like to be lonely.

If we make this about gender, it becomes a boys’ club which is not ideal for our female posters. This is why it’s, rightfully, not allowed.

You can express your struggles and feelings without invalidating those of others.


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kraftiekortie
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01 Aug 2022, 10:59 pm

It’s really good that you’re helping with the trivia thing.

This situation is a decent opportunity to meet someone.

I don’t believe statistics “demystifies” anything. It’s good that you feel like they demystify things for you….as long as you don’t consider these statistics to be gospel.

My feeling is that you’ve had bad luck.