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Mona Pereth
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12 Sep 2022, 1:59 pm

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
But I really DON'T see her the same way that modern feminists do, and it's not that I have anything against women (if I did why would I be drawn to goddess worship? Lol), it's just that I am distrustful of what feminism has become these days. It really does feel toxic.

Hopefully you at least support women's right to bodily autonomy?

I personally associate Lilith not only with feminism, but also with today's (and this past century's) sexual and gender-related liberation movements in general, including the LGBTQ+ community and also the kink scene.

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
My feeling is that just like Lamashtu, Lilith is a destroyer of many things. I personally believe that one of the things she has succeeded in destroying in today's world is the trust between men and women. I have no doubt abour this.

And yet Im sympathetic towards her because of her misanthropic tendencies which I can relate to.

She is also the perfect femme fatale, an archetype I have always felt drawn to. She does terrible things but she is oddly sympathetic due to the way she was treated by both Adam and thr supreme God Yahweh.

I guess my personal understanding and relationship to Lilith is a complex one. Part of me admires her and feels that I understand her in a way others do not, but part of me also feels deeply repulsed by her and wishes to reject her, but she always finds a way back into my life.

Perhaps what's needed is balance?

As I see it, all of the afore-mentioned social movements are essentially good, but fanaticism can be harmful.

Societal changes that are essentially good can be associated with a traditionally "evil" figure because the needed changes seem "evil" to the defenders of the status quo. To me, this is an example of how a society's relationship with deities can change as the society itself changes.

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
That's why when I started researching more about the other goddesses Inanna and Ereshkigal who could potentially share Lilith's place on the Burney relief, I figure why not accept all three into my list of deities I feel close to

I personally associate Inanna/Ishtar with another social reform badly needed in today's world, but not yet achieved in most places: namely, decriminalization of sex work.

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
like the Shichifukujin as well as Hestia

In the Greek pantheon, I guess Hestia is the deity who comes closest to being a peacemaker deity, although Hestia is more a conflict-avoider than an active, problem-solving peacemaker like Enki in the Sumerian pantheon.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 12 Sep 2022, 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DeathFlowerKing
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12 Sep 2022, 2:10 pm

Don't worry, as I said in a different post I am pro-choice. I also consider myself a feminist, but I think I'm just more old school in my opinions about what equality and female empowerment should be about.

And I don't equate hating men to feminism. True feminism, at least in my opinion, should be about much more than that.

And I want to apologize because I think a lot of what I was trying to say came out wrong. I'm not always very good at expressing what I really mean to say if that makes any sense?

As for Hestia, I think that's exactly why she appeals to me too. She avoids confrontation just like I try to do. She represents safety and comfort to me.

I also view the fact that she made the choice herself to never marry as a form of empowerment. Everyone should not be pressured into marriage or having children if they don't wish to, and that applies to both men AND women.



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12 Sep 2022, 2:55 pm

Here is a cool documentary about a matriarchal village in China that I think might explain what I believe is an Eastern culture with a unique view on what matriarchy and female empowerment could be about in what I see as more truly admirable.



For the record I don't like this London woman hosting this because she was being very rude and insensitive towards their culture when she called them "glorified housewives". But as a Westerner it's possible that what made the women in this society so successful is simply lost on her.

These Mosuo people live in a society where the women work very hard to support the household and the mothers and grandmothers are the heads of the houses and the communities themselves. They don't practice a traditional monogamous marriage and instead do a style of mating where the women can take on as many lovers and fathers to their children as they want. The men of this society never really stick around to raise the children so it all falls on the women to take care of the families, the only men who help out are usually brothers and uncles. They are also matrilineal meaning property is passed down from the mothers.

Now when you see the women working so hard and taking on so much responsibility while the men do so little, your first thought might be to comdemn it like this hostess did. But take into consideration the fact that these women are literally the ones who have the real power in this society. They make all the important decisions for their village and they earned respect through centuries of hardwork.

Sometimes real power and respect is something we must work hard for, it's not just something we are entitled to.

I think these women are amazing for having kept such a matriarchal society going for so long.

Also I found it insightful when the hostess asked if the Mosuo people ever had female warriors and one of the women she interviewed who was a village leader laughed and said "Killing is a man's job"

Even though I myself respect female warriors, it's the kind of thing that gets me thinking that being traditionally 'feminine' does not automatically equal weakness. Even in some matriarchal societies you still have strict gender roles but it works in their society.

All women shouldn't have to put on armor and pick up a sword or a gun to earn respect. But they should also be allowed that choice if they want to.



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12 Sep 2022, 3:55 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Someone else whose been digging through religious myth lately in this manner (aside from Peterson, Vervaeke, Pageau, etc.) is an Iranian-American philosopher named Jason Reza Jorjani. He's of course dedicating himself to starting a particular political and philosophic movement, Prometheism,

Looks like he stole the name "Prometheism" from a much older, altogether different movement of the same name, founded by Józef Piłsudski, promoting national independence for various ethnic groups dominated first by the Russian empire, then by the Soviet Union, and now by Russia. According to the Wikipedia article about "Prometheism":

Quote:
The term "Prometheism" was suggested by the Greek myth of Prometheus, whose gift of fire to mankind, in defiance of Zeus, came to symbolize enlightenment and resistance to despotic authority.

Here is Jason Reza Jorjani's blog. He appears to assume that the transhumanist "Singularity" is coming very soon, which IMO is very unlikely. He then makes a bunch of conspiracy-oriented predictions based on this assumption.

According to this profile on the website of the Center for Analysis of the Radical Right, "Jorjani became infamous as the co-founder of the alt-right with Richard Spencer and Daniel Friber," but he then left the alt-right after the infamous Charlottesville "Unite the Right" rally in August 2017.


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12 Sep 2022, 4:03 pm

All of that's known to me. I mentioned earlier he's got some gems but they're in with other things, for example he makes the case somewhere that if we can't figure out that if we can't live in peace there's no freedom - he's pretty much throwing Darwinian evolution over his shoulder like it's something that external pressures can scare us out of or that it isn't something like a forever state of multipolar traps where whoever doesn't run in that race loses by default and therefor it pays to be the person who kicks off the problem rather than being the person downstream trying to survive the consequences. That whole dynamic and any possibility of surviving after kicking hornets nests or having freedom, let alone power and wealth or inflicting significant damage on other tribes, would have to be long gone as any sort of possibility.

Where I do think Jorjani makes an interesting point is that as we start going more toward human cybernetics and the like humanity will increasingly come up against the 'spectral', really all of the woo that we've been trying to ridicule out of the mainstream, be forced to admit it's existence, and his fear is that - as we are - we'd weaponize that to in order to scalp each other over genes, occult crimes would be untraceable, and consequently we'd be right back to rounding up witches and worse. Some of his UAP speculations seem relatively circumspect as well, ie. he's considered a lot of different angles, in particular that if humans at any point in the future developed time travel it could be alien, us, and breakaway civilization all at the same time.

I don't buy any of it hook, line, and sinker but I do appreciate that he's willing to chew on some novel questions and propose answers in some cases that I haven't heard anyone else state previously. That and, when I think of Jungian phenomena and the transpersonal and it's relationship to matter, I don't think he's entirely wrong that there may be an epistemic bombshell coming with reference to the spectral.


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12 Sep 2022, 4:55 pm

I don't know, maybe some of my own views as a witch and a pagan are deeply flawed...

But witch I am and witch I'll always be regardless. I think I just need to keep learning and judge less. Or at least judge appropriately.



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12 Sep 2022, 5:43 pm

One thing I find interesting about Lilith/Lamashtu is the similarities she has to the Greek monsters known as Lamia and Echidna who are often depicted as half-snake and half-woman.

Echidna was known as the "Mother of Monsters" who dwelled in an underground cave and gave birth to the majority of the monsters to be found in Greek Mythology like the Hydra and the Cerberus. Lilith and Lamashtu also gave birth to many monsterous demons according to legend.

Lamia was also a monster who preyed on innocent children, snatching them away and devouring them like a sort of bogeyman. And some myths and artists like painter John Waterhouse have portrayed her as a beautiful enchantress who seduces young men so she could devour them.

Image



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12 Sep 2022, 5:56 pm

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/en ... (mythology)

Quote:
In Greek mythology, Lamia was a Queen of Libya who became a child-murdering monster feared for her malevolence. According the Greek legends, the goddess Hera slayed all of Lamia's children (except Scylla) in anger due to the fact that Lamia slept with her husband, Zeus. Lamia's subsequent grief at the death of her children caused her to turn into a monster who took revenge on all mothers by stealing their children and devouring them.[1] In this manner, she is similar to the near-Eastern demon Lilith


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echidna_(mythology)

Quote:
In Greek mythology, Echidna (/ɪˈkɪdnə/; Greek: Ἔχιδνα, "She-Viper")[2] was a monster, half-woman and half-snake, who lived alone in a cave. She was the mate of the fearsome monster Typhon and was the mother of many of the most famous monsters of Greek myth.[3]



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12 Sep 2022, 10:38 pm

I decided to make an arrangement of tarot cards laid out in a specific way that I think matches up to the recurring themes of Inanna, Ereshkigal, and Lilith as relates to them.

The Queen of Wands sitting on the Throne of Lions represents the lions on the Burney Relief and the lion is most likely associated with Inanna. Ambitious and Courageous she is near the top as the Queen of the Heavens.

The Queen of Swords with a soaring bird above her represents the two owls on the Burney Relief (birds of prey) as well as the fact that the figure is half woman and half bird. She is clever but ruthless like Lilith and also has a bit of tragedy and sadness surrounding her like Ereshkigal. She is seated in the lower realms of the dark Underworld.

The Temperance Card in between is the balance of Heaven and Underworld between the three deities and she is a winged goddess.

At the very top surrounding Inanna's Queen of Wands is The Star card with the 8 pointed star known as the Star of Ishtar (Ishtar being another name for Inanna and thus being her sacred symbol). The second card is The Empress which is a symbol of fertility and femininity and she sits relaxed on the symbol for Venus (the planet Venus being the actual Morning and Evening Star which is actually the Star of Ishtar). The Empress wears a crown of stars and I read somewhere that it shows her status as the Queen of Heaven. And then there's the Strength Card which depicts a young goddess taming a lion. The Lion is a sacred animal to the goddess Inanna and this card us about inner-strength.

At the very bottom surrounding the Queen of Swords I chose four cards in relation to Ereshkigal and Lilith aka Lamashtu.

The High Priestess is a card of feminine power much like The Empress but she is more secretive and shadowy and is ruled under the moon. This High Priestess is my card for Ereshkigal, a kindly and beautiful young female goddess who guards the secrets of the Afterlife.

The Moon card is similar in that it also rules over secrets but in a more sinister way. It is connected to predatory animals that hunt at night like the nocturnal owls that are connected to the demonic Lilith. It is also a card connected to fear, anxiety, and paranoia in the night (Lilith rules over dreams and nightmares like a succubus where she seduces men and preys on sleeping infants). The wolf, hound, and crayfish that are swearing lotalty to the Full Moon represent Lilith's power and influence over the beasts of nature as she is the wild woman who cannot be tamed.

The Death Card near Ereshkigal represents the concept of dying and the Underworld itself where she rules. All humans and beasts, great and small, come to her eventually as she is inescapable.

The Devil Card near Lilith represents the concept of Hell itself. Both the Angel of Death (known as Samael) in The Death card and The Devil are believed to be one in the same by some religions and occultists, to which Lilith became his consort as she made a pact with Samael who had control over life and death so that she would be allowed to live forever. The man and woman chained to the demonic Devil are supposed to represent Adam and Eve who were condemned to hell after their deaths for eating the forbidden fruit, and some stories claim that it was actually Lilith, not Lucifer, who took the form of the snake in the garden and tricked Adam and Eve into eating the fruit out of revenge. Thus dooming all mankind.




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13 Sep 2022, 6:29 am

The Stoa discussing Moloch w/ Liv Boeree:




The Scott Alexander / Slate Star Codex article they're discussing:
https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/m ... on-moloch/


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13 Sep 2022, 7:22 am

Ah yes, Moloch the Demonic God of Capitalism (in my opinion at least). If Americans were truly honest about who and what they worshipped our currency would read "In Moloch We Trust". :lol:

Edit: Oh wait I apologize I was confusing him with Mammon.



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13 Sep 2022, 12:42 pm

An interesting interpretation on the story of Inanna and the Tree of Life and how Lilith is the negative polar opposite to Inanna.

https://m.facebook.com/womenofalchemy/p ... BVh7gra3Bx



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13 Sep 2022, 5:59 pm

Anyone else see a similarity between the Sumerian Lamashtu and the Egyptian Goddess Ammit? She was known as the "devourer of the dead" who ate the souls of those unworthy for the Afterlife.

Both Ammit and Lamashtu had a monsterous appearance made up of many beasts and neither was actually worshipped in any temples because they were both deeply feared as demons and monsters.

https://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/ammit/

https://occult-world.com/ammit/

https://www.ancientneareast.net/mesopot ... -lamashtu/

https://occult-world.com/lamashtu/



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14 Sep 2022, 2:21 pm

You know something? It never occured to me that linking Lilith with Inanna was a huge mistake. Apparently they are recorded as enemies in the Sumerian legend where Lilith appeared as one of the three demons in the tree that Inanna grew in her garden and she had to figure out a way to rid her tree of these three unwanted demons.

So combining Lilith to Inanna would essentialy be like linking God with Satan.

A big Duh on my part lol



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17 Sep 2022, 8:10 am

Apparently Samael aun Weor was nothing more than a homophobic and misogynistic cult leader...


https://www.reddit.com/r/cults/comments ... _cult_for/


Guess I misjudged that one!