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Joe90
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10 Sep 2022, 7:48 pm

Right, I'm not very good at explaining things so just persevere.

So many songs go lyrics / main chorus / lyrics / main chorus / variation / chorus.

That's just an approximate example, and I can't think of what the bits are between choruses so I just call them lyrics but hopefully you'll know what I mean.

Anyway the point I'm trying to make is that usually after the second (sometimes third, if the song started with the chorus) comes the variation.

Do you get what I mean? It's not like it with all songs of course but the pattern does seem common in a lot of songs. Sometimes in some songs (even my favourite songs) I go on to the next song when it gets to the variation, which is usually off-note singing or just background music.


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Eurythmic
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11 Sep 2022, 1:36 am

This is conventional song structure that's roughly followed in many songs.

Verse
Chorus
Verse
Chorus
Middle 8
Verse
Chorus repeated one or twice and then ad lib to fade.

Some musos choose not to follow this, notably the late Roy Orbison who had his songs flow organically.



funeralxempire
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14 Sep 2022, 1:33 am

Joe90 wrote:
Right, I'm not very good at explaining things so just persevere.

So many songs go lyrics / main chorus / lyrics / main chorus / variation / chorus.

That's just an approximate example, and I can't think of what the bits are between choruses so I just call them lyrics but hopefully you'll know what I mean.

Anyway the point I'm trying to make is that usually after the second (sometimes third, if the song started with the chorus) comes the variation.

Do you get what I mean? It's not like it with all songs of course but the pattern does seem common in a lot of songs. Sometimes in some songs (even my favourite songs) I go on to the next song when it gets to the variation, which is usually off-note singing or just background music.


Because it's one of the two main structures a song can follow.

There's the structure that Eurythmic described:

Verse
Chorus
Verse
Chorus
Middle 8
Verse
Chorus repeated one or twice and then ad lib to fade.


There's also the 32 bar form:

Quote:
At its core, the basic AABA 32-bar song form consists of four sections, each section being 8 bars in length, totaling 32 bars. Each of these 8-bar sections is assigned a letter name ("A" or "B"), based on its melodic and harmonic content. The A sections all share the same melody (possibly with slight variations), and the recurring title lyric typically falls on either the first or last line of each A section. The "B" section musically and lyrically contrasts the A sections, and may or may not contain the title lyric. The "B" section may use a different harmony that contrasts with the harmony of the A sections. For example in the song "I've Got Rhythm", the A sections are in the key of B♭, but the B section involves a circle of fifths series of dominant seventh chords going from D7, G7, C7, to F7. Song form terminology is not standardized, and the B section is also referred to as the "middle eight", "bridge", or "primary bridge".


Or basically: Verse, Verse, Bridge, Verse

There's other structures (AAB, ABA) but since you mostly listen to pop music (as far as you've mentioned publicly) you'll mostly encounter pop song structures.

Other genres are more prone to different structures, hip-hop sometimes features tracks that are just verses (AAAAA, for example, one A for every verse), hardcore often features what amounts to an AB structure (verse, breakdown), progressive rock and some metal is very movement oriented, you might encounter a structure like ABCDECDBEFGBCD (intro, core riff, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, core riff, breakdown, guitar solos, core riff, verse, chorus). The songs on Master of Puppets and ...And Justice For All are good examples of that sort of songwriting.

Really though, it's kinda just how music works. Much like how most music is based around counting in fours (and most of the rest counts in threes), from there it's built out of blocks of fours and threes.

You write words and music that fits into chunks that are multiples of four long, you structure them into groups of four or three to create parts that are 16 or 12 bars long and you structure those parts in repeating patterns until you've got a song. :nerdy:

Or, you don't repeat them and now you're playing 30 second long punk songs. :lol:


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10 Oct 2022, 12:20 am

funeralxempire wrote:

Or, you don't repeat them and now you're playing 30 second long punk songs. :lol:


I was going to mention this, too! I used to listen to a lot of grindcore bands who would just throw the entire 'typical song structure' thing completely out the window! But then again, they got rid of a lot of harmony and the silence that makes music 'musical' in the process, so there's a reason why not many people listen to it!


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techstepgenr8tion
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10 Oct 2022, 4:48 pm

It's one way to get your music radio-friendly, so at a minimum you have to do a certain amount of it while you're 'paying your dues' and then if you've gotten to be a super band - then you might be able to get a bit more self-indulgent.


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11 Oct 2022, 1:20 pm

Yes a lot of songs go much like that. Don't know why. Back in the 1920s and 30s it used to be different. There'd often be an introductory refrain which was rather different from the rest of the song.

I heard that these days there's a tendency to get the "hook" in pretty early, because the "hook" is the snazziest, flagship part that gets everybody buying it, and if the listeners have to wait too long for it then they go away and listen to something else, without ever hearing the best part.

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20 Oct 2022, 5:43 am

They repeat the same thing over because a lot of people like listening to songs while doing something else, like what I'm doing right now as I type this post.

The longer songs meant solely for listening aren't like that. But shorter 3-4 minute usual pieces are.



naturalplastic
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21 Oct 2022, 3:48 pm

Most songs are AABA. Melody, same melody, slightly different melody, first melody again.

And the A sections are subdivided into verses and chorus.

Just the way it is. Catches your ear.

That dark introductory stuff...then "I WANNA WHAT LOVE ISSSSssss....I think that you can show meeeee." :D



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21 Oct 2022, 4:51 pm

Fun fact!

NAME THAT BRIDGE!

The B section is also known as "the bridge" of the song.

The sound being made by this British police car happens to be the B section, or bridge, of a well known pop song.
Can you guess which song?

Its a well-known song. Virtually everyone on the planet has heard it.


Bridge



ToughDiamond
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21 Oct 2022, 11:19 pm

^
The Bridge is (or was) also known as the Middle Eight in the UK - I guess it usually has 8 bars.

I failed your quiz :-(



naturalplastic
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22 Oct 2022, 2:02 am

ToughDiamond wrote:
^
The Bridge is (or was) also known as the Middle Eight in the UK - I guess it usually has 8 bars.

I failed your quiz :-(



https://youtu.be/PSZxmZmBfnU



ToughDiamond
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22 Oct 2022, 5:26 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
^
The Bridge is (or was) also known as the Middle Eight in the UK - I guess it usually has 8 bars.

I failed your quiz :-(



https://youtu.be/PSZxmZmBfnU

Ah, that was it. Interesting use of the bridge, repeating it at the end like that, where there's nothing to bridge. But I'm glad they did, very effective.

I also thought it might be a song by The Smiths because a lot of their melody lines seemed to consist of very few different notes.

John Lennon said he got the idea for I Am The Walrus from hearing a police siren. Here's something loosely related:
(trigger warning: it weirds most people out)
https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=wMXdJhac6LQ



naturalplastic
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22 Oct 2022, 5:47 pm

My point was that in "Over the Rainbow" it IS used as the "bridge" in the middle of the song between two A sections.

"If little blue birds can do whatever..." hi lo hi lo hi lo

But as in many songs the same bridge is reused as the coda at then end.

Your link is 'having issues" apparently. Cant get to the site.



ToughDiamond
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22 Oct 2022, 6:07 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
My point was that in "Over the Rainbow" it IS used as the "bridge" in the middle of the song between two A sections.

"If little blue birds can do whatever..." hi lo hi lo hi lo

But as in many songs the same bridge is reused as the coda at then end.

Your link is 'having issues" apparently. Cant get to the site.


Oh yes, I'm sure your point is valid about it being a bridge.

Sorry the link isn't working for you. Luckily there's always an actual YouTube equivalent for those Invidious links, as Invidious is just a website that "relays" YT content in a better form, i.e. with a download button and without the bloat, ads, and tracking. Here's the YT version of the link. Hope it works for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMXdJhac6LQ



naturalplastic
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22 Oct 2022, 6:52 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
My point was that in "Over the Rainbow" it IS used as the "bridge" in the middle of the song between two A sections.

"If little blue birds can do whatever..." hi lo hi lo hi lo

But as in many songs the same bridge is reused as the coda at then end.

Your link is 'having issues" apparently. Cant get to the site.


Oh yes, I'm sure your point is valid about it being a bridge.

Sorry the link isn't working for you. Luckily there's always an actual YouTube equivalent for those Invidious links, as Invidious is just a website that "relays" YT content in a better form, i.e. with a download button and without the bloat, ads, and tracking. Here's the YT version of the link. Hope it works for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMXdJhac6LQ

Its not showing "I am the Walrus". Its showing Eleonor Rigby.

Its a version of Eleonor Rigby that would...Get me to confess to bombing the World Trade Center just to make it STOP!! !!



ToughDiamond
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22 Oct 2022, 9:48 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
My point was that in "Over the Rainbow" it IS used as the "bridge" in the middle of the song between two A sections.

"If little blue birds can do whatever..." hi lo hi lo hi lo

But as in many songs the same bridge is reused as the coda at then end.

Your link is 'having issues" apparently. Cant get to the site.


Oh yes, I'm sure your point is valid about it being a bridge.

Sorry the link isn't working for you. Luckily there's always an actual YouTube equivalent for those Invidious links, as Invidious is just a website that "relays" YT content in a better form, i.e. with a download button and without the bloat, ads, and tracking. Here's the YT version of the link. Hope it works for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMXdJhac6LQ

Its not showing "I am the Walrus". Its showing Eleonor Rigby.

Correct. Like I said, it's loosely related - i.e. the only common denominator is that it's a Beatles song.
Quote:
Its a version of Eleonor Rigby that would...Get me to confess to bombing the World Trade Center just to make it STOP!! ! !

As one commentor remarked,
Revolution 9: I am the weirdest Beatles song of all.
Eleanor Rigby: Hold my beer......

Strangely enough, although I don't exactly like it, it doesn't weird me out at all. I've always suspected I may be uncommonly impervious to deliberate psychological torture.