What if Ukraine agrees to deal which lets Russia save face?

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goldfish21
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22 Sep 2022, 2:13 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Ukraine at this point needs to beat Russia back over their boarders with its tail tucked between its knees. Then Putin needs to either resign or get pushed off something.

:heart: :heart: :heart:


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goldfish21
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22 Sep 2022, 2:14 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Image

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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goldfish21
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22 Sep 2022, 2:15 pm

putin & Russia can't be trusted. Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile - literally. If they're given a n y t h i n g it'll just embolden them to march on to attacking the next country and the next after that. They need to lose and lose badly.


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22 Sep 2022, 2:27 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
putin & Russia can't be trusted. Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile - literally. If they're given a n y t h i n g it'll just embolden them to march on to attacking the next country and the next after that. They need to lose and lose badly.



Exactly, russia has made their imperial ambitions quite clear. They have been openly talking about rolling tanks through half of Europe. Lithuania is especially at risk, in perticuarly in the south of the country. The sanctions and returning to cold war status has really upped the incentive for russia to occupy that land to have an unimpeded land rout to kaliningrad.



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22 Sep 2022, 3:19 pm

Notice that we’re taking a page from the rightwing blogsphere. Even though I started my OP with “Let me make it clear, moral right sides with Ukraine. . . , ” that is viewed as nowhere near good enough.

Instead, many posts are striving to outdo each other with how anti-Putin we are.

Challenge— Prepare a short speech of what you might tell family members of people who might die in the coming months, and how you might explain that “making Putin pay” or something similar was deemed as more important than allowing the war to wind down?



goldfish21
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22 Sep 2022, 3:29 pm

AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote:
Notice that we’re taking a page from the rightwing blogsphere. Even though I started my OP with “Let me make it clear, moral right sides with Ukraine. . . , ” that is viewed as nowhere near good enough.

Instead, many posts are striving to outdo each other with how anti-Putin we are.

Challenge— Prepare a short speech of what you might tell family members of people who might die in the coming months, and how you might explain that “making Putin pay” or something similar was deemed as more important than allowing the war to wind down?


I don't think you're quite getting the fact that Ukrainians are willing to die for the country's sovereignty vs. stay alive under oppressive rule by putin's Russia. They're also holding the line for the rest of Europe from being invaded by this madman. Pretty sure they've made this clear by their actions of fiercely defending their territory vs. just letting putin's army steamroll them and replace their government/re-annex Ukraine to Russia.


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22 Sep 2022, 3:46 pm

I don't think of it as “making Putin pay”, I think of it as a prerequisite for "allowing the war to wind down". I think there are two possible paths to ending the war: Ukraine loses decisively or Putin loses decisively—and with the latter both countries could then limp away and hire an army of diplomats and lawyers.


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22 Sep 2022, 5:24 pm

AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote:
Notice that we’re taking a page from the rightwing blogsphere. Even though I started my OP with “Let me make it clear, moral right sides with Ukraine. . . , ” that is viewed as nowhere near good enough.

Instead, many posts are striving to outdo each other with how anti-Putin we are.

Challenge— Prepare a short speech of what you might tell family members of people who might die in the coming months, and how you might explain that “making Putin pay” or something similar was deemed as more important than allowing the war to wind down?



It's not a matter of "making putin pay" nor am I just engaged in an anti-putin circle jerk.

russia is trying to forcibly annex large swaths of a sovern state. russia is commiting countless war crime in the prossess including mass abduction, torture, and mass murder of civilians in occupied territory. Simply handing russia those swaths of land for no reason for russia forces to commit these crimes with complete impunity makes zero sense and does not save lives or reduce suffering, especially in the long run. pootin and russia in general have made it very clear that their plan after Ukraine was to move on to attacking other sovern states and annexing their territory and/or making the vassel states under pupit regimes. His plan was to expand russian boarders to include any land that russia ever laid claim to. That includes all soviet land as well as all russian empire land under the tsars.



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22 Sep 2022, 8:09 pm

AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote:
Notice that we’re taking a page from the rightwing blogsphere. Even though I started my OP with “Let me make it clear, moral right sides with Ukraine. . . , ” that is viewed as nowhere near good enough.

Instead, many posts are striving to outdo each other with how anti-Putin we are.

Challenge— Prepare a short speech of what you might tell family members of people who might die in the coming months, and how you might explain that “making Putin pay” or something similar was deemed as more important than allowing the war to wind down?

It's a matter of defeating Putin to the point where he's no longer a threat. To where he never tries another invasion. Winter coming on could very well bring Putin's weakened forces down altogether. It's up to him to withdraw or keep at it. If he decides to keep at it, that shows he needs to be soundly defeated. Ultimately Russia needs to do the right thing and retire him. He only has power as long as they let him have it. Their very existence could depend on it considering his threats of using nukes. So it's also a matter of pushing Russia to the point where they have to remove him.



kraftiekortie
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22 Sep 2022, 8:14 pm

It would be good if Putin had morals, and was able to keep to treaties and other agreements. If this were so, then it might be advantageous for us to seek to allow Putin to "save face."

But he has shown, time and again, that he is not a man to be trusted.

Therefore, I find that it would be dangerous if we sought to have Putin "save face." Putin doesn't want to "save face," frankly.

And anyway......it's not like Russia is totally the "Big Bad Bear" in this. Ukraine is holding its own in this war.

I have nothing against the Russian PEOPLE, by the way. This is Putin's doing, pure and simple.



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22 Sep 2022, 8:44 pm

In case you were unaware, there are many similarities between what is going on now, or rather what pootin was attempting, and the initial start of the last great European hot war, WWII. The lessons learned from the start of that war are playing a part in how the world is treating this one. People made the wrong decisions the last time in placating hitler and just letting him roll through Austria-Hungary and Poland. The only thing people like this understand is force.



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22 Sep 2022, 9:33 pm

OK. I'm assuming Putin gets dumped.

If not, we could end up in WWIII.

But if Putin is dumped, Ukraine has some HUGE complaints to be addressed. Reparations and war crimes for the harm Russia caused. Whatever follows Putin might not feel responsible for the harm he caused. And the general Russian public has been an innocent hostage to the Putin regime, and then they'll be innocent heirs to it's damage.

Is there a fair and palatable way out of this?


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Matrix Glitch
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22 Sep 2022, 10:30 pm

Looking it up it seems Nikolai Patrushev would be the person to replace Putin. So how well would Patrushev and Zelenskyy work together?

https://www.businessinsider.com/experts ... ill-2022-7



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22 Sep 2022, 10:42 pm

"We Know How To Win. And We Will." - Dmytro Kuleba, Minister Of Foreign Affairs, Ukraine

Audience gives a standing ovation.



magz
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23 Sep 2022, 1:39 am

Double Retired wrote:
OK. I'm assuming Putin gets dumped.

If not, we could end up in WWIII.

But if Putin is dumped, Ukraine has some HUGE complaints to be addressed. Reparations and war crimes for the harm Russia caused. Whatever follows Putin might not feel responsible for the harm he caused. And the general Russian public has been an innocent hostage to the Putin regime, and then they'll be innocent heirs to it's damage.

Is there a fair and palatable way out of this?
The way Germany has walked since WWII.


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magz
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23 Sep 2022, 1:41 am

AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote:
Challenge— Prepare a short speech of what you might tell family members of people who might die in the coming months, and how you might explain that “making Putin pay” or something similar was deemed as more important than allowing the war to wind down?
To Ukrainians: "I know what you're fighting for. I'm with you."
To Russians: "Why did you not protest earlier? Well, protest now. We just want your army to go home. Just like you want your son to come home."


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