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The HORRIFIC Torture Of The Women Of The Battle Of Berlin

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cyberdad
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30 Nov 2022, 10:44 pm

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
Well to be fair so has every eastern power in existence.


That's my point. Everyone has committed "horrific torture". There is nothing exceptional about the Russians.
And in response to a certain other poster it doesn't make one a "mental midget" to admit that.



DeathFlowerKing
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30 Nov 2022, 11:16 pm

cyberdad wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
Well to be fair so has every eastern power in existence.


That's my point. Everyone has committed "horrific torture". There is nothing exceptional about the Russians.
And in response to a certain other poster it doesn't make one a "mental midget" to admit that.


Yes I agree.



magz
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01 Dec 2022, 2:05 am

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Just because a conflict get's called "World war" hardly makes it the only atrocity. Almost every western power in existence has been involved in genocide and covering it up in the last couple of centuries.
Well to be fair so has every eastern power in existence.

And I believe we should talk about each in separate threads - or about all in some general thread.
Insisting on talking on genocide X every time someone brings a topic of genocide Y (that incidentally happens to affect them personally) feels like devaluating whataboutism.


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01 Dec 2022, 2:35 am

magz wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Just because a conflict get's called "World war" hardly makes it the only atrocity. Almost every western power in existence has been involved in genocide and covering it up in the last couple of centuries.
Well to be fair so has every eastern power in existence.

And I believe we should talk about each in separate threads - or about all in some general thread.
Insisting on talking on genocide X every time someone brings a topic of genocide Y (that incidentally happens to affect them personally) feels like devaluating whataboutism.


Thank you.
This was a very personal/emotional topic for me, even to the point I couldn't go back to this thread for a few days.

What happened to my family and those in the conflict, in general, has haunted me all my life.
Hence my extreme sympathy for those experiencing the horrors in Ukraine now.



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01 Dec 2022, 4:01 am

cyberdad wrote:

That's my point. Everyone has committed "horrific torture". There is nothing exceptional about the Russians.
And in response to a certain other poster it doesn't make one a "mental midget" to admit that.


The fact that you don't even understand what was said only further proves my point.


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01 Dec 2022, 4:06 am

magz wrote:
Insisting on talking on genocide X every time someone brings a topic of genocide Y (that incidentally happens to affect them personally) feels like devaluating whataboutism.


It's sure interesting, isn't it? Why do you suppose someone would be so insistent that only certain historical atrocities be pored over ad nauseam, but then consistently object when the spotlight shifts, repeatedly demanding that other posters justify their discussion? I'd call it highly suggestive, to say the least.


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magz
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01 Dec 2022, 4:30 am

Again: no getting personal, please.
Discuss the topic, not other members.


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Dox47
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01 Dec 2022, 4:57 am

Okay, then lets just say I'm curious about why a hypothetical person would have such a problem with other people discussing the evils of communism or historical atrocities committed by communist countries, especially if they have no apparent stake in the matter, it's just a weird thing to frequently object to, especially when the person doesn't appear to be a Tankie or anything like that.


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01 Dec 2022, 6:00 am

Curiosity noted; hypothetical people can be hypothetically weird. Meanwhile, back on the topic...


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01 Dec 2022, 4:58 pm

magz wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Just because a conflict get's called "World war" hardly makes it the only atrocity. Almost every western power in existence has been involved in genocide and covering it up in the last couple of centuries.
Well to be fair so has every eastern power in existence.

And I believe we should talk about each in separate threads - or about all in some general thread.
Insisting on talking on genocide X every time someone brings a topic of genocide Y (that incidentally happens to affect them personally) feels like devaluating whataboutism.


Because it's about perspective. It`s impossible to talk about anything without seeing the time & space something occurred in.

Like you can't talk about the bombing of Dresden without talking about the bombing of London

What's the point in talking about Russian soldiers' behaviour in WW2 without talking about the Germans killing 20 million Russian civilians & burning Russian villages before they were stopped & forced back to Berlin? or US behaviour like the rapes in France & Japan or the collecting of boiled skulls of Japanese soldiers?

Without that perspective it`s impossible to understand what people did in that particular time in history and more importantly the norms of soldier behaviour at that time.


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01 Dec 2022, 6:15 pm

carlos55 wrote:
What's the point in talking about Russian soldiers' behaviour in WW2 without talking about the Germans killing 20 million Russian civilians & burning Russian villages before they were stopped & forced back to Berlin? or US behaviour like the rapes in France & Japan or the collecting of boiled skulls of Japanese soldiers?.


^^^ Exactly

If the "hypothetical" intention is to pretend the conduct of Russian soldiers happened in a vacuum then the intention is to create a distorted portrayal of the factors that led to that event.

This whole thread was created with the purpose of throwing mud on communism and societies that (once upon a time) followed communism (at least in name). I feel the moderators know that.



magz
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02 Dec 2022, 2:53 am

carlos55 wrote:
Because it's about perspective. It`s impossible to talk about anything without seeing the time & space something occurred in.

Like you can't talk about the bombing of Dresden without talking about the bombing of London

What's the point in talking about Russian soldiers' behaviour in WW2 without talking about the Germans killing 20 million Russian civilians & burning Russian villages before they were stopped & forced back to Berlin? or US behaviour like the rapes in France & Japan or the collecting of boiled skulls of Japanese soldiers?

Without that perspective it`s impossible to understand what people did in that particular time in history and more importantly the norms of soldier behaviour at that time.
Exceuse me but it's entirely wrong to keep talking about "perspective" to a rape victim.

The point of talking of it is that there are survivors and their children who need it acknowledged and understood.
Some attrocities have been widely acknowledged, and it's good. Others have been silenced for decades and even today it's hard to talk about them.
As someone impacted by inter-generational trauma, I know first-hand that healing is impossible without acknowledging and understanding what happened - even for grandchildren of the original victim.


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cyberdad
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02 Dec 2022, 3:40 am

magz wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
Because it's about perspective. It`s impossible to talk about anything without seeing the time & space something occurred in.

Like you can't talk about the bombing of Dresden without talking about the bombing of London

What's the point in talking about Russian soldiers' behaviour in WW2 without talking about the Germans killing 20 million Russian civilians & burning Russian villages before they were stopped & forced back to Berlin? or US behaviour like the rapes in France & Japan or the collecting of boiled skulls of Japanese soldiers?

Without that perspective it`s impossible to understand what people did in that particular time in history and more importantly the norms of soldier behaviour at that time.
Exceuse me but it's entirely wrong to keep talking about "perspective" to a rape victim.

The point of talking of it is that there are survivors and their children who need it acknowledged and understood.
Some attrocities have been widely acknowledged, and it's good. Others have been silenced for decades and even today it's hard to talk about them.
As someone impacted by inter-generational trauma, I know first-hand that healing is impossible without acknowledging and understanding what happened - even for grandchildren of the original victim.


Then make this a thread about the victims of all war crimes. Instead the thread hyperfocuses on German victims in WWII and their first post was this is a "tradition" by Russian soldiers as if they were the only ones that were raped in WWII.

Perhaps the thread should be renamed and the emphasis changed as it seems currently anti-Russian to me and others here taking the opportunity for this to be an excuse to be anti-communist



magz
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02 Dec 2022, 3:48 am

cyberdad wrote:
Then make this a thread about the victims of all war crimes. Instead the thread hyperfocuses on German victims in WWII and their first post was this is a "tradition" by Russian soldiers as if they were the only ones that were raped in WWII.

Perhaps the thread should be renamed and the emphasis changed as it seems currently anti-Russian to me and others here taking the opportunity for this to be an excuse to be anti-communist

Why does it hurt you to make a thread about this particular attrocity?
Why can't you stand an idea that Russians commited some horrible attrocities in the past, enforced silence about it, never even attempted to punish their evildoers, and now they're doing something similar again?
Why do you believe being anti-communist needs any "excuse"?


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cyberdad
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02 Dec 2022, 3:57 am

magz wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Then make this a thread about the victims of all war crimes. Instead the thread hyperfocuses on German victims in WWII and their first post was this is a "tradition" by Russian soldiers as if they were the only ones that were raped in WWII.

Perhaps the thread should be renamed and the emphasis changed as it seems currently anti-Russian to me and others here taking the opportunity for this to be an excuse to be anti-communist

Why does it hurt you to make a thread about this particular attrocity?
Why can't you stand an idea that Russians commited horrible attrocities in the past, enforced silence about it, never even attempted to punish their evildoers, and now they're doing something similar again?
Why do you believe being anti-communist needs any "excuse"?


Because the purpose of the thread is to draw a direct line between one incident in WWII and the actions of some Russian troops in Ukraine.

I think a number of us have provided evidence this link is neither scholarly or rationale,

As I mentioned if the thread is purely about aforementioned Russian atrocities as a WWII thread then at least it makes more sense. Trying to draw connections with Ukraine and Putin is designed to cast Russia as some type of villain who (if you believe some here) are driven by communism.



magz
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02 Dec 2022, 4:14 am

You clearly don't understand how trauma works.

We're not discussing something abstract, we're discussing actual experiences of actual people close to WP members. So don't invalidate it for not being scholarly enough.

Why do you find it wrong that people harmed by communism hate communism and people harmed by Russia (and never ever getting even a hint of an apology or acknowledging of any wrongdoing) hate Russia?


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