The HORRIFIC Torture Of The Women Of The Battle Of Berlin

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Think this thread discussion is going around in circles & getting silly, could have been wrapped up in a few posts rather than 16 pages!

The current Ukraine war is discussed elsewhere

The USSR was made up of 15 states of which Ukraine has quite a high position of power compared to the other 13 by comparison, so if Russia apologizes what about some of the Ukrainian decision makers are they expected to apologize too if not why?

I gather the take home message (given by Magz and not the OP) is that Russia has never been held to account for its war crimes in WWII and so therefore is repeating the same crimes on the people of Ukraine.

However, I have pointed out that Russia has hardly been allowed to develop democracy and so under various autocrats has never been compelled to demilitarise so when you have a authoritarian regime with a despotic leadership who are armed to to the teeth then the current incursion into Ukraine is hardly that surprising.

. gather the take home message (given by Magz and not the OP) is that Russia has never been held to account for its war crimes in WWII and so therefore is repeating the same crimes on the people of Ukraine.

AFAIK, from various memories and family stories - German army was way better discilpined and, generally, just an army, running a horrible war that included attacking civilian targets (but the allies did this, too). Nazi Germany took pride in German military traditions, both in terms of conquer and discipline.
The attrocitous ones were SS - and, of course, the whole concentration and death camps system (which was partially ran by SS and which started before the war started).

Nazi Germans had conflicting morality. Soviet Russians, too. I believe most of the horrible mass-scale attrocities around the world are done by people of "conflicting morality".

Although they were derisively dismissed as Himmler’s “asphalt soldiers” by the OKW high command, the troops of the Waffen-SS were superbly equipped and tended to have high morale.
Waffen-SS made up less than 5 percent of the Wehrmacht, but it accounted for nearly one-fourth of Germany’s panzer divisions and roughly one-third of the Wehrmacht’s panzer grenadier (mechanized infantry) divisions.

The USSR was a dictatorship and unoccupied where Germany was militarily defeated and occupied

Here’s some other probable reasons:-

1. The USSR was made up of 15 states of which Ukraine has quite a high position of power compared to the other 13 by comparison, so if Russia apologizes what about some of the Ukrainian decision makers are they expected to apologize too if not why?

2. Most of the worst crimes of the USSR happened in the early to mid 20th century the crimes since then diminished in size and magnitude after Stalins death

3. It’s controversial on how far a country or citizens who live there are responsible for the actions of a dictatorship does Iraq apologize for Saddam Hussein? Should Iraqis somehow get blamed for his invasion of Iran or Kuwait?

4. Like I said those senior decision makers responsible of stuff in 1940’s and 50’s were likely dead

5. Did Russians themselves not suffer under Stalin or USSR? was it a paradise there? was you not just as likely to get a knock at the door from the secret police if you lived in Moscow as opposed to E Berlin? In which case why apologize if your the victim yourself?

6. Is anyone else apologizing and being prosecuted as well for stuff their country did in living memory, is the US apologizing for helping S American dictatorships that tortured there people, did US apologize for bombing Vietnam villages, spraying agent orange poisoning the place. Did they apologize for using depleted Uranium in desert storm in 1990 that caused birth defects.

I believe US Secretary of State Madeline Albright said a million Iraqi kids dying from sanctions was a price worth paying and she only died a year or so I believe.

So everyone apologizes and is brought to justice which I think is good.

But still waiting for Tony Blair to apologize and be prosecuted for lying about Iraq war. Don’t think that will happen soon

"Allowed" by whom? By... citizens who kept voting for a dictator since 2000?

The point I was making is why at the time from their point of view should only Russia allow itself to be accountable for war crimes?

If other allies were committing war crimes too?

Polands invasion of Czechoslovakia?

British bombing of Dresden

British bombing of the famous dam

US dropping two nukes on civilian areas

And many more

And there have been war crimes since:

Was the US poisoning of Vietnam with agent orange , bombing their villages with B52’s not a war crime?

Was the US bombing of Iraqi civilian infrastructure like Russia is doing now not a war crime?

Also unless the order is given to rape at the president or chief of staff level (which is a literal instruction and provable) it becomes a criminal individual soldier / officer issue the country itself is rarely held to account unless in the form of negligence of command.

Rape is arguably a war crime.

I don't dispute there is widespread support from the Russian population for Putin. But their is widespread propaganda about Ukraine being taken over by Nazis. I think (rightly or wrongly) a lot of Russians have bought into this propaganda.

I’m all for Russia being held accountable for any war crimes in WW2 and now but my point is why just Russia?

I understand a million Armenians died at the hands of Turkey in a type of holocaust in the 20th century but no one seems bothered about that.

The Wehrmacht wasn't a great fan of the SS, btw.
They considered them a parade army. “Asphalt soldiers”.


https://www.britannica.com/topic/Wehrmacht

The Wehrmacht proper had high traditional moral standards.
Ironically, in the beginning, only those without a criminal record could join the LSSAH/SS.

The Wehrmacht proper had high traditional moral standards.

Just like the historical nazis bought into propaganda that Jews were to blame for all their misery.
It's a common way of evil - to make people believe others are evil so any harm to them would be justified.
I believe it brings us back to the OP rapes, too.

Just like the historical nazis bought into propaganda that Jews were to blame for all their misery.
It's a common way of evil - to make people believe others are evil so any harm to them would be justified.
I believe it brings us back to the OP rapes, too.