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DeathFlowerKing
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29 Nov 2022, 12:03 pm

magz wrote:
1. Cultural. American culture is, I hope no one gets offended, horribly rat-eats-rat conquest-oriented individualist. Nordic cultures rely really a lot on various-level local communities. American culture values individual power, Nordic cultures value social harmony


No offense taken as an American myself. It took me years to realize just how screwed up our own system is. So much about my country was not what I was led to believe it was. And yet even knowing this I still can't imagine ever giving up my own individal luxuries and freedoms i have come to enjoy.

I think I would go absolutely crazy living in a society where nobody wants me to want more or have more than my neighbor. I admit I'm a materialist.



kraftiekortie
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29 Nov 2022, 12:10 pm

I’m actually a strong supporter of “the Third Way,” as epitomized by European-style Social Democracy.

I was speaking more of more communistic regimes referring to themselves as “socialists” because of their notion that their communism was “imperfect,” and that the “revolution” hadn’t gone far enough.



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29 Nov 2022, 12:11 pm

Nades wrote:
I think the Nordic economies and politics are ill thought out. People are tiring of them as it's increasingly dominated by identity politics and race.

It's a political philosophy that's very vulnerable to being taken advantage of. Push over politics so to speak and people date speak out about it. They have a massive problem with being taken for a ride by illegal immigration which I think factors into heavily in why people are getting tired of it. They'll see their income slowly drain away if they don't get to grips with it.
Interesting.
When I was talking to a Swedish guy, he was mostly worried by something completely different - social classes getting way more rigid than they used to be in the times of his parents and grandparents.

Of course, he was just one guy. We have Scandinavian WP members, we can ask their opinions, too.


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magz
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29 Nov 2022, 12:15 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I’m actually a strong supporter of “the Third Way,” as epitomized by European-style Social Democracy.

I was speaking more of more communistic regimes referring to themselves as “socialists” because of their notion that their communism was “imperfect,” and that the “revolution” hadn’t gone far enough.

Ok, now I understand what you mean.

While self-identified "communist" states are a bunch of, ahem, failed experiments (China still self-identifies as communist but that's really only a name now...), self-identified "socialist" states run from "imperfect communism" to actual social democracy.


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Nades
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29 Nov 2022, 12:37 pm

magz wrote:
Nades wrote:
I think the Nordic economies and politics are ill thought out. People are tiring of them as it's increasingly dominated by identity politics and race.

It's a political philosophy that's very vulnerable to being taken advantage of. Push over politics so to speak and people date speak out about it. They have a massive problem with being taken for a ride by illegal immigration which I think factors into heavily in why people are getting tired of it. They'll see their income slowly drain away if they don't get to grips with it.
Interesting.
When I was talking to a Swedish guy, he was mostly worried by something completely different - social classes getting way more rigid than they used to be in the times of his parents and grandparents.

Of course, he was just one guy. We have Scandinavian WP members, we can ask their opinions, too.


Right wing parties are rapidly gaining ground in Sweden. The Swedish friend I speak to hates the high levels of tax and nauseating identity politics and pandering to immigrants. This seems to be mirrored across all of Sweden if the votes are anything to go by.

I'm unaware of what inequality is like in Sweden but equality seems to be part of the problem. People in Sweden seem to have to work like dogs only to live an equal lifestyle to people who don't work or even economic migrants. I think inequality needs to become worse in Sweden if anything.



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29 Nov 2022, 1:04 pm

magz wrote:
1. Cultural. American culture is, I hope no one gets offended, horribly rat-eats-rat conquest-oriented individualist.

The US began moving away from that in the years following WWII. In the 70s there was a protracted period of economic stagnation, the result of which was that a new political trend took the country back in the direction of rat-eats-rat as you suggested. By which I meant to say that this mentality may not be as deeply ingrained in the culture as foreigners think.

As for Communism, in particular Marxism-Leninism, you could say it was a failure but at the same time people who lived in that system did benefit in some ways and some of those people would go back if they could, especially in Germany (where a consensus based cultural tradition may have resulted in greater success i.e. there were people there committed to making it work unlike Romania for example).

The problem talking about Communism today is that much of our information comes from blatantly anti-communist propaganda so we don't have a dispassionate view of those days. Which is not to say Communism is a good thing but it's also not the pure evil it was portrayed as during the Cold War. I don't think it's equivalent to Fascism because it's based on humanitarian principles and, sometimes at least, those principles were put into practice, effectively or not.

I could say that the rat-eats-rat attitude has a strong connection with the "Communism is pure evil" point of view which most people seemed to feel was vindicated by the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact.


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magz
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29 Nov 2022, 1:20 pm

Nades wrote:
Right wing parties are rapidly gaining ground in Sweden. The Swedish friend I speak to hates the high levels of tax and nauseating identity politics and pandering to immigrants. This seems to be mirrored across all of Sweden if the votes are anything to go by.

I'm unaware of what inequality is like in Sweden but equality seems to be part of the problem. People in Sweden seem to have to work like dogs only to live an equal lifestyle to people who don't work or even economic migrants. I think inequality needs to become worse in Sweden if anything.

AFAIK, the anti-immigrant right-wing parties in Europe are widely supported by the working class that feels not represented by socialists any more... and this would actually support my friend's worry that class differences have deepened.


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magz
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29 Nov 2022, 1:33 pm

MaxE wrote:
As for Communism, in particular Marxism-Leninism, you could say it was a failure but at the same time people who lived in that system did benefit in some ways and some of those people would go back if they could, especially in Germany (where a consensus based cultural tradition may have resulted in greater success i.e. there were people there committed to making it work unlike Romania for example).
I once sat in a plane next to a Polish guy who described life in DDR he remembered.
If someone had anything but a car in their garage - the neighbours let the police know and you got raided. If a car was parked that did not park in this street earlier - a denuntiation and an investigation.
Sure it was wealthier and better-organized than Romania or Poland but it was a really stiff police state, at least according to his account.
Similarily, Czechoslovakia was better-off than Poland - but when my parents' friends learned that my father rejected recruitment to the party and still could work as an engineer, they were shocked. It was impossible there. Poland was relatively free at a cost of enormous poverty.

MaxE wrote:
The problem talking about Communism today is that much of our information comes from blatantly anti-communist propaganda so we don't have a dispassionate view of those days. Which is not to say Communism is a good thing but it's also not the pure evil it was portrayed as during the Cold War. I don't think it's equivalent to Fascism because it's based on humanitarian principles and, sometimes at least, those principles were put into practice, effectively or not.
Well, I don't base my opinion on books available in America but on lived experience of my family. We all were on the eastern side of the iron curtain.
You could live if you were lucky... especially if you had good connections to the black market, so you could get food straight from the farmers and maybe even some imported "treasures". If you had no such connections or tried to be honest, your reality was a daily struggle for most basic goods, regardless of the work you did professionally.

Unless we go back to the Stalinist times... then I have a family account from a death cell. Luckily, he outlived Stalin and got amnesty.
And another family account from Siberia. And forced relocations, an hour to pack the whole family and get on a train that carries you God knows where.

Or maybe you want my Ukrainian friend's account? He experienced Soviet army and Soviet prison. Methods of "investigation" from "The Gulag Archipelago" were still practiced in the 1980s.

MaxE wrote:
I could say that the rat-eats-rat attitude has a strong connection with the "Communism is pure evil" point of view which most people seemed to feel was vindicated by the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact.
Possibly. Ideologies do such things to people. Propaganda of success is particularily dangerous, as it leads to systematically ignoring problems.


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29 Nov 2022, 2:52 pm

magz wrote:
Nades wrote:
Right wing parties are rapidly gaining ground in Sweden. The Swedish friend I speak to hates the high levels of tax and nauseating identity politics and pandering to immigrants. This seems to be mirrored across all of Sweden if the votes are anything to go by.

I'm unaware of what inequality is like in Sweden but equality seems to be part of the problem. People in Sweden seem to have to work like dogs only to live an equal lifestyle to people who don't work or even economic migrants. I think inequality needs to become worse in Sweden if anything.

AFAIK, the anti-immigrant right-wing parties in Europe are widely supported by the working class that feels not represented by socialists any more... and this would actually support my friend's worry that class differences have deepened.


That's similar to what working class people feel here too. There was a good Youtube video on it that I watched a couple of years ago. The working class here are often divided geographically as much as financially. There also seems to be growing distain against the working class in the UK by the metropolitan "elite". Many have a strong dislike against working class areas as they're often predominantly white. I've been told directly several times that my area is too "white" and as a result, every white person in my area must be tribal and prepositioned to racism.

It's not a good breeding ground for respecting liberal policies. Communism on the other hand, nobody here wants that too.



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29 Nov 2022, 2:55 pm

Nades wrote:
That's similar to what working class people feel here too. There was a good Youtube video on it that I watched a couple of years ago. The working class here are often divided geographically as much as financially. There also seems to be growing distain against the working class in the UK by the metropolitan "elite". Many have a strong dislike against working class areas as they're often predominantly white. I've been told directly several times that my area is too "white" and as a result, every white person in my area must be tribal and prepositioned to racism.

Best way to grow actual racism...


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29 Nov 2022, 3:14 pm

magz wrote:
Nades wrote:
That's similar to what working class people feel here too. There was a good Youtube video on it that I watched a couple of years ago. The working class here are often divided geographically as much as financially. There also seems to be growing distain against the working class in the UK by the metropolitan "elite". Many have a strong dislike against working class areas as they're often predominantly white. I've been told directly several times that my area is too "white" and as a result, every white person in my area must be tribal and prepositioned to racism.

Best way to grow actual racism...


It is. This has been a growing concern by the general public. When a race of people are race baited to the point where their reputation is damaged, they'll quickly close ranks. There are some truly disgusting racists around who are doing themselves no favour when voting time comes around. Sweden is endemic with them and now years of cultural erosion and anti white racism is coming to a head.

Communism itself though from a strictly economic perspective? (weird flip in subjects I know).

I think communism requires capitalism and this is where it fails. Who provides the capital to start up all of these businesses? The government do yes, but how does the government even begin to run all of these specialised businesses? With a capitalist society, individuals provide the capital to employ others and unusually they have to be very passionate and knowledgeable to be willing to cough up that money.

Also the idea that the state owns your "property" is really grating to a lot of people.



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29 Nov 2022, 4:03 pm

I would listen to someone who has experienced “communism in action,” like Magz (and especially her parents) experienced.



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29 Nov 2022, 4:04 pm

Just a quick note on the Nordic countries; many of the have enormous oil wealth, and that has allowed them to prop up generous social welfare programs despite otherwise lackluster economies. Make of that what you will.


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29 Nov 2022, 4:16 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Just a quick note on the Nordic countries; many of the have enormous oil wealth, and that has allowed them to prop up generous social welfare programs despite otherwise lackluster economies. Make of that what you will.


I heard Norway has a sizable state owned oil money. They're not countries that can easily be emulated.



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29 Nov 2022, 4:22 pm

Whenever a system fails, it's the fault of their leaders. Bad parenting...


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29 Nov 2022, 5:19 pm

Quote:
. Cultural. American culture is, I hope no one gets offended, horribly rat-eats-rat conquest-oriented individualist. Nordic cultures rely really a lot on various-level local communities. American culture values individual power, Nordic cultures value social harmony.


No offense here. Even we Americans think this is BS and it's catered around the rich and it keeps other people poor. They tax the poor and don't tax the rich. Poor people pay more taxes while higher income people pay less. And we don't have national healthcare and health insurance is a private business so even if you do have it through your job, you still have to pay out of pocket because they can decide what they want to cover and what treatment is worth paying for. They see spider veins as cosmetic but yet if they feel uncomfortable on you because you feel pressure or a burning sensation, they don't care because it's still cosmetic. So I pay out of pocket to get these suckers treated.

Capitalism causes greed, businesses want more and more and more and people get poorer and poorer. We have a homeless issue now because so many greedy landlords raised their rents and kept raising them where people couldn't afford to pay their rent so they got evicted or moved out and lost everything and now we have all these homeless people.

I am thankful for my landlord we had when we lived in an apartment, our landlord never raised our rent and she didn't care for profit. She never updated her units, she only kept them maintained and it was a place to live in, we didn't care for updated stuff, home was a home and we had a roof over our heads and everything was functioning. That was all it mattered. And she just collected rent and would only pay property taxes and maintain the place. Greedy landlords who do it for profit raise rent and update their units for profit so they can charge more in rent and get new tenants because they know there are people that are willing to pay that much because they're rich and being rich means they won't be there forever and they will move out when they get a new job or get a house. Poor people can't save for a house if it's all going towards rent so they're stuck. In a way our landlord helped us get a house. Because we saved, we were able to move out and move to another roof over our heads than the streets. In return, I cleaned the entire apartment from top to bottom and only left the keys and the carpet cleaning receipt, and within a week she already had it rented out.


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