Virginia Restaurant refuses to serve conservative group

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KimD
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12 Dec 2022, 8:52 pm

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I'm a Jew....and I wouldn't serve a Nazi.

This situation is not as extreme as that.


Why are they different? The Nazis hate LGBT+ people too, you know. They killed them in the concentration camps, they kill them on the streets, they harass them any- and everywhere, and to this very day, despite recent progress, actual legislators pass actual laws to make sure they get treated as lesser beings than straight people.

This group claims to be Jesus-following, good ole family folks, but you should know by now that it's sheep's clothing.



kraftiekortie
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12 Dec 2022, 9:35 pm

I never said that LGBT+ people weren't killed in the concentration camps, and that they should have to serve Nazis.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 12 Dec 2022, 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

naturalplastic
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12 Dec 2022, 10:15 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I just feel that this would set a bad precedent. And polarize our country. That's what I feel.

It would bring back the days when lunch counters refused to serve blacks. Why do you think we had the sit-ins? We could potentially go back to the days of Jim Crow and segregation. If "not serving conservatives" start becoming common, "not serving blacks" will become common, too.

I have friends who are pro-choice. I am pro-choice. I also have friends who don't believe in abortion. I don't agree with them. But I would serve them though (unless, of course, they are full-blown Nazis; then, I would just ask the manager to have somebody else serve them.


Wanting to restrict rights of homosexuals and women is not a racial identity like being black it is. So I don't think it's at all like someone refusing to serve black people or would bring that back.

And still it wasn't just because they're conservative, it's because they're part of an organization that is specifically fighting to restrict rights of people they don't agree with as well as wanting to instate biblical law(if you look at their website). That is a bit different, also the restaurant could get bad publicity if people find they're allowing Christo-fascist organizations to dine there.

Maybe next time they can get themselves a nice chick fil a dinner...


Everyone has freedom of speech. Even the freedom of speech to advocate the elimination of freedom of speech.
AND the freedom of speech to advocate a creed of repression of all kinds of other rights as well. Thats why the ACLU fought for the right of the Nazis to march on Skokie.

However the city council in Skokie are a local government entity. The government cant censor you - even by denying you the right to march. But a private person, or a privately owned restaurant, is not the government. So arguably a waiter refusing to serve you because you're a Nazis is himself exercising free speech, and so is a restaurant claiming that "my waitstaff all refuse to serve Nazis".

But then is a restaurant refusing to serve Blacks okay? Would that be 'free speech'?



r00tb33r
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12 Dec 2022, 10:26 pm

KimD wrote:
Quote:
I'm a Jew....and I wouldn't serve a Nazi.

This situation is not as extreme as that.


Why are they different? The Nazis hate LGBT+ people too, you know. They killed them in the concentration camps, they kill them on the streets, they harass them any- and everywhere, and to this very day, despite recent progress, actual legislators pass actual laws to make sure they get treated as lesser beings than straight people.

This group claims to be Jesus-following, good ole family folks, but you should know by now that it's sheep's clothing.

This is why not stating a reason is important. Because otherwise you have to accuse someone of being a Nazi, which you may have to later prove, otherwise it's libel. If you say nothing you won't have that problem.

Virginia is an "at will" state, meaning an employer doesn't have to provide a reason to fire an employee. I'm just not sure if it already applies to service.


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cyberdad
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13 Dec 2022, 2:16 am

Sometimes restaurants don't even know/follow their own rules.

I saw a video of a black woman who was told by a restaurant owner that her child can't be seated because he was wearing sports shorts. She suspected racism and started video taping the owner and then be sheer accident filmed a white kid wearing exactly the same shorts on sitting at a table. When asked the manager went bright red but unbelievably insisted her child go home and get changed.



kraftiekortie
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13 Dec 2022, 7:21 am

^Yep….that’s certainly racist garbage!



goldfish21
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13 Dec 2022, 11:06 am

^There's a difference between racial/ethnic/religious groups, and hate filled ideologies or reputations for violence that make staff and other people uncomfortable.

People from all walks of life are welcome in restaurants and bars here. EXCEPT for gangsters - even if they're not breaking the law. We have an ID system called "Bar Watch," and photo ID's are scanned/peoples pictures taken at the door and any known gangsters are not permitted to enter any of the establishments participating in Bar Watch (which is almost all of them downtown) in order to keep customers safe and violent criminals out.

Same thing happens with dress codes - they're a little more informal, but, they exist and are enforced. The first bar I worked at didn't allow steel toed boots, daytons (s**t kicker motorcycle boots), or gang colours. (Hell's Angels) I think the last would be harder to enforce if the HA didn't agree to respect it and just drink elsewhere.. but they did because their friends owned the bar lol.

Other than that, the only groups I ever saw get profiled were of certain racial ethnic backgrounds at one or two clubs I was at as a customer.. they were denied entry based on their appearance 100%, but, that's what you get when groups that look like you show up and cause violent problems nightly. They Might have just been a group of friends, buuuut, when you fit the profile of the type of local gangsters that get drunk and cause fights/draw guns etc, then you're going to be told the club is at capacity sometimes. Dress differently and go out with fewer people maybe, if you're not actually up to no good that is.


But overall, in general, anyone/everyone is welcome in almost all places.. Christians are most certainly not banned from restaurants, but someone spewing LGBT hate and using their religion as an excuse to somehow justify it? LOL, hit the grocery store and press the buttons on your microwave because the gay waiter and lesbian chef aren't subjecting themselves to your BS for your amusement, the rest of the staff don't want anything to do with you, the regular customers like the staff, and management wants to continue to have staff and customers so the best move financially is to refuse service to your hate filled ass and carry on with business as usual, sans hate.


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KimD
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13 Dec 2022, 7:14 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I never said that LGBT+ people weren't killed in the concentration camps, and that they should have to serve Nazis.


Explicitly, no you didn't. But you still didn't say why you think it's different. Your reasoning may be obvious to you, but not to me.



kraftiekortie
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13 Dec 2022, 9:19 pm

It's not different. It's the same. Murder is murder.

I said that a situation where a "liberal" restaurant refuses to serve a "conservative" group is not the same as anybody serving a Nazi, or a black person serving a Klansman. I feel like you misunderstood me.



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14 Dec 2022, 3:28 am

We are missing an important factor here. Often this is a bottom-line issue or what the owner perceives as a bottom-line issue. If your restaurant got a reputation of a place where bigots hang out it is going hurt profit. If your restaurant is in a progressive neighborhood or is appealing to progressive customers having a conservative group fundraising there, it will confuse your branding campaign and potentially hurt profit.

Kraftie is right in that while banning based on political views has always existed it is much more of a minefield today. Your employees are more likely, to quit and customers are likely to boycott you over more things. Also, outsiders are more likely to try an intimidate your establishment today.




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Mona Pereth
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15 Dec 2022, 5:31 am

r00tb33r wrote:
Being refused service sucks, but would you want to be served by a person who doesn't want to serve you but has been forced to?

Depends.

If I were a member of a category of people that was widely discriminated against in this regard, for essential goods and services in my local area, then definitely yes. They should indeed be "forced" not to discriminate.

It probably would not take long for the majority of managers and staff to get accustomed to serving people of a different race, creed, sexual orientation, etc. Their initial discomfort probably would not last very long, at least for the most part.

Back in the 1960's, here in the U.S.A., anti-discrimination laws were absolutely needed in order desegregate businesses in the South. A purely voluntary approach would not have worked. Problem: If businesses were not REQUIRED to desegregate, then any business that did de-segregate voluntarily would risk getting burned down by the Klan.

Anyhow, note that laws against discrimination against particular categories of people are very different from requiring a commercial establishment to host a specific type of event (e.g. a political event) that is intrinsically insulting (or worse) to a significant portion of the venue's staff and potential customers.


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