Page 1 of 1 [ 14 posts ] 

Aspiegaming
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2012
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,076
Location: Hagerstown, MD

15 Dec 2022, 8:47 pm

Skip the ad sponsor segment at 2:40.


_________________
I am sick, and in so being I am the healthy one.

If my darkness or eccentricness offends you, I don't really care.

I will not apologize for being me.


DanielW
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jan 2019
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,873
Location: PNW USA

15 Dec 2022, 9:21 pm

Sure, if you don't mind leaving the waste for other people to clean up.



MaxE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,267
Location: Mid-Atlantic US

15 Dec 2022, 9:42 pm

DanielW wrote:
Sure, if you don't mind leaving the waste for other people to clean up.

If the world continues to depend on fossil fuels, there soon won't be any people around to clean.


_________________
My WP story


Jono
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,606
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

18 Dec 2022, 5:50 pm

DanielW wrote:
Sure, if you don't mind leaving the waste for other people to clean up.


Nuclear waste is not actually a problem, regardless of what you were led to believe. It can be reprocessed for more nuclear fuel or it can be transmuted into an inert element so that it's no longer a danger. Often, the high level waste is stored on site.



techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,183
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi

18 Dec 2022, 6:53 pm

The biggest problem for growing nuclear as an alternative to oil and coal - there just isn't enough Uranium:

https://phys.org/news/2011-05-nuclear-p ... 05%20years.

Check Vaclav Smil if you want to hear the doom and gloom for global warming targets but effectively he's saying it'll take us centuries to sort out how to run our modern economies on something other than majority oil and coal because it's an exponentially more expensive problem than landing astronauts on the moon or solving the CFC issue.


_________________
“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin


MaxE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,267
Location: Mid-Atlantic US

18 Dec 2022, 7:27 pm

Well of course the author of that article said nothing about breeder reactors. These have historically been thought too dangerous but given the current climate crisis, the world may choose to rethink its risk threshold.


_________________
My WP story


techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,183
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi

18 Dec 2022, 7:56 pm

MaxE wrote:
Well of course the author of that article said nothing about breeder reactors. These have historically been thought too dangerous but given the current climate crisis, the world may choose to rethink its risk threshold.


Only because it caught my attention as I was going through the article. Not the most obvious placement or lengthy discussion of the topic but:
Quote:
Uranium extraction from seawater: Uranium is most often mined from the Earth’s crust, but it can also be extracted from seawater, which contains large quantities of uranium (3.3 ppb, or 4.6 trillion kg). Theoretically, that amount would last for 5,700 years using conventional reactors to supply 15 TW of power. (In fast breeder reactors, which extend the use of uranium by a factor of 60, the uranium could last for 300,000 years. However, Abbott argues that these reactors’ complexity and cost makes them uncompetitive.) Moreover, as uranium is extracted, the uranium concentration of seawater decreases, so that greater and greater quantities of water are needed to be processed in order to extract the same amount of uranium. Abbott calculates that the volume of seawater that would need to be processed would become economically impractical in much less than 30 years.


_________________
“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin


DanielW
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jan 2019
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,873
Location: PNW USA

18 Dec 2022, 8:47 pm

MaxE wrote:
DanielW wrote:
Sure, if you don't mind leaving the waste for other people to clean up.

If the world continues to depend on fossil fuels, there soon won't be any people around to clean.


And a major fission surplus wouldn't wipe people out before that?



Jono
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,606
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

19 Dec 2022, 4:00 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
The biggest problem for growing nuclear as an alternative to oil and coal - there just isn't enough Uranium:

https://phys.org/news/2011-05-nuclear-p ... 05%20years.

Check Vaclav Smil if you want to hear the doom and gloom for global warming targets but effectively he's saying it'll take us centuries to sort out how to run our modern economies on something other than majority oil and coal because it's an exponentially more expensive problem than landing astronauts on the moon or solving the CFC issue.


There's more than enough uranium if you use breeder reactors. Plus, if nerd be, they can switch to thorium reactors in future.



auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 113,699
Location: the island of defective toy santas

19 Dec 2022, 5:37 am

isn't uranium used for other purposes? what happens when we use it all up and there is none left for those other purposes?



techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,183
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi

19 Dec 2022, 8:03 am

Jono wrote:
There's more than enough uranium if you use breeder reactors. Plus, if nerd be, they can switch to thorium reactors in future.

Guess the article's wrong then. Nevermind! :roll:


_________________
“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin


Jono
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,606
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

19 Dec 2022, 8:04 am

auntblabby wrote:
isn't uranium used for other purposes? what happens when we use it all up and there is none left for those other purposes?


At the moment, the uranium used for other purposes is usually what they call depleted uranium after the isotope used in conventional reactors (uranium-235) is used up. 99% percent of uranium is the isotope uranium-238, which is not usable in conventional reactors and that's the depleted uranium used for those other purposes as you say. However, in breeder reactors, that other 99% percent of uranium can be changed into plutonium to be used as further nuclear fuel. That's why I said that there's more than enough uranium to power the world if we were to build breeder reactors.



Jono
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,606
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

19 Dec 2022, 8:06 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Jono wrote:
There's more than enough uranium if you use breeder reactors. Plus, if nerd be, they can switch to thorium reactors in future.

Guess the article's wrong then. Nevermind! :roll:


To a large extent, it is wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining#Peak_uranium



techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,183
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi

19 Dec 2022, 3:32 pm

A pro-nuclear page just slightly more optimistic than phys.org:
https://world-nuclear.org/information-l ... 90%20years.

Quote:
The world's present measured resources of uranium (6.1 Mt) in the cost category less than three times present spot prices and used only in conventional reactors, are enough to last for about 90 years.


If you could actually do breeders with a 5-6 year limit for a 15TW economy (which some people are arguing is already closer to 19TW), and you can actually - cleanly - multiply fuel value by 60x and not have that eaten up by other cost considerations, it could work for several centuries.

I think to really be credible they'd need a way to do this with SMR's. IMHO SMR's seem like they're only way in which you can really mass-produce nuclear the way SpaceX mass-produces rockets and drive the cost down. Most of the issues around breeder reactors relate to huge / highly expensive facilities that they say are 25% more expensive to run than standard facilities (and they have safety concerns with the molten metal in this case having fewer safeguards than water-based cooling). The main thing I saw cited as to why 'most' current SMR's couldn't handle breeder reaction had something to do with the amount of sodium needed for neutron containment.

I'm personally *not* an expert in this area (not sure if we actually do have any resident experts in the proper technical sense) but the experts I've heard talk about it aren't optimistic regarding supply nor the idea that nuclear could feasibly replace oil and coal.

Also not sure if any of this will clear up over the course of the the thread, whether no one at the top of the field can really come up with accurate estimates, or whether venture capital's already doping public info on this.


_________________
“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin