27 Jan 2023, 2:52 am
funeralxempire wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
You are lucky you didn't have woke parents. They would have sent you to a "therapist" to "affirm" your male "gender" and later have you in puberty blockers.
Who needs to make a serious point when we can become hysterical over strawman caricatures of our opponents.
Why, hasn't that happened? Are you so sure?
On what do you base this assumption? The fact that a parent might take significant gender dysphoria seriously isn't the same as having a kneejerk reaction to force any kid who isn't perfectly gender conforming into therapy or more.
Typically, that's conservatives who tend to be more prone to imposing binary gender expectations upon their kids, but I wouldn't make a strawman about conservatives all sending potentially queer kids off to conversion therapy either, because it's not a political matter.
Hell, some of those 'woke' parents didn't become 'woke' until they started taking their kid's issue seriously. Some of those folks were progressives already, but some of them were conservatives who bought the usual talking points until they were given a personal example.
But somehow, it's all the fault of t3h woke for... what exactly?
I'm curious to know your opinion about this case:
https://nypost.com/2019/10/23/texas-jur ... ransition/
Can't imagine being in that man's place.
27 Jan 2023, 3:58 am
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Canadian1911
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27 Jan 2023, 7:26 am
Canadian1911
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funeralxempire
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27 Jan 2023, 12:18 pm
Dengashinobi wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
You are lucky you didn't have woke parents. They would have sent you to a "therapist" to "affirm" your male "gender" and later have you in puberty blockers.
Who needs to make a serious point when we can become hysterical over strawman caricatures of our opponents.
Why, hasn't that happened? Are you so sure?
On what do you base this assumption? The fact that a parent might take significant gender dysphoria seriously isn't the same as having a kneejerk reaction to force any kid who isn't perfectly gender conforming into therapy or more.
Typically, that's conservatives who tend to be more prone to imposing binary gender expectations upon their kids, but I wouldn't make a strawman about conservatives all sending potentially queer kids off to conversion therapy either, because it's not a political matter.
Hell, some of those 'woke' parents didn't become 'woke' until they started taking their kid's issue seriously. Some of those folks were progressives already, but some of them were conservatives who bought the usual talking points until they were given a personal example.
But somehow, it's all the fault of t3h woke for... what exactly?
I'm curious to know your opinion about this case:
https://nypost.com/2019/10/23/texas-jur ... ransition/
Can't imagine being in that man's place.
Just to start, the NY Post is a News Corp owned tabloid that I don't consider particularly credible, so I will not be relying solely on their reporting.
https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/11/ ... ld-custody
I think the NY Post's reporting is clearly biased, they don't seem to want to even consider the possibility that the father might be mistaken in his perspectives. This seems to be because any other framing would conflict with their ideological positions.
The NY Post makes no attempt to discuss what transitioning for a child of that age means, Vox however includes:
Quote:
For a child of Luna’s age, this is solely social and consists of keeping her hair long, choosing her own clothing, and using a feminine name and pronouns.
So, to be clear, we're freaking out over long hair, girly clothes and a different name/pronouns.
Quote:
However, the conservative campaign spread incorrect fears that Georgulas was seeking to immediately “chemically castrate” the child — a misinformed, scary-sounding reference to hormone medications that would suppress Luna’s testosterone production and replace it with estrogen, which would typically be years in Luna’s future, according to standard medical guidelines. The only plans Georgulas had, according to court transcripts, was to take Luna to a Children’s Health clinic for transgender kids in Dallas. There, they would discuss a plan for potentially starting her on puberty blockers, which are reversible, in the next few years if Luna’s gender dysphoria persists.
Just your typical conservative disinformation campaign, which the NY Post is contributing to.
Quote:
Seizing on Younger’s narrative of Georgulas manipulating her child, right-wing media outlets like LifeSiteNews and the Daily Wire also accused Georgulas of forcing Luna to be transgender “because she wanted a girl.” But that claim seems rather flimsy because Georgulas has two older daughters from a prior marriage.
In court testimony, Georgulas said that she would prefer if Luna were not transgender, but she supports her child’s gender identity regardless of her own feelings. “From my knowledge as a pediatrician and also from the research I’ve done, it is better to affirm for the psychological well-being of the child … [doctors recommended] that we affirm the child’s choices, whatever those choices are,” she said.
Meanwhile, Younger made the conservative media circuit rounds, insisting it was Georgulas who was forcing Luna to present as a girl. Luna “presents as a boy with me and [she] presents as a girl with his mom,” Younger told LifeSiteNews, a conservative Christian website, in September. “[She] gets dressed as a boy at [her] mother’s home and [she] comes out to me as a boy. That means that [she’s] comfortable as a boy at [her] mother’s home.” Georgulas and others who have testified have disputed this latter part, saying it was Younger forcing Luna to present as a boy.
In court testimony, Georgulas said that she would prefer if Luna were not transgender, but she supports her child’s gender identity regardless of her own feelings. “From my knowledge as a pediatrician and also from the research I’ve done, it is better to affirm for the psychological well-being of the child … [doctors recommended] that we affirm the child’s choices, whatever those choices are,” she said.
Meanwhile, Younger made the conservative media circuit rounds, insisting it was Georgulas who was forcing Luna to present as a girl. Luna “presents as a boy with me and [she] presents as a girl with his mom,” Younger told LifeSiteNews, a conservative Christian website, in September. “[She] gets dressed as a boy at [her] mother’s home and [she] comes out to me as a boy. That means that [she’s] comfortable as a boy at [her] mother’s home.” Georgulas and others who have testified have disputed this latter part, saying it was Younger forcing Luna to present as a boy.
Hmm, that's entirely at odds with how the NY Post reports on the story. Is it possible that the tabloid might be acting like a tabloid?
Quote:
Despite how the far right has painted Georgulas, it is Younger’s character that has come under legal scrutiny. According to court documents of the annulment of his and Georgulas’s marriage, the court found that Younger lied about multiple aspects of his life: his career, his previous marriages, his income, his education, and even his military service. It was enough for a Texas court to annul their six-year marriage because it was entered into under fraudulent terms.
It sounds like Jeffrey Younger has a credibility issue. I'm not sure his claims can be trusted at face-value based on this.
Quote:
Even conservative pundit Glenn Beck expressed concern over Younger’s past. On his radio show, he read the court’s findings of fact showing that Younger acted aggressively toward Georgulas’s older daughters, withholding their possessions, locking them in their rooms, and forcing them to do “plank push-ups” until they agreed to follow house rules.
That's not good.
Quote:
Perhaps the greatest falsehood of all, according to official court records, is that Luna hasn’t been clear about how she identifies.
According to a transcript of a July 10, 2018, hearing in the case, Luna’s twin brother, a CPS worker, a therapist, and a pediatrician all attest to Luna’s gender identity as a girl. The medical professionals who have seen Luna have recommended she be affirmed and treated as a girl, and it’s Younger who refuses to accept his child’s gender identity.
In April 2017, Luna asked to be referred to by the name Luna. At age 5, Luna was diagnosed by a qualified professional therapist as having gender dysphoria, distress stemming from a mismatch between her birth sex and her gender identity. Her pediatrician noted that at both her 5-year and 6-year checkups, Luna presented as a girl and has been persistent in her gender identity throughout her childhood.
According to a transcript of a July 10, 2018, hearing in the case, Luna’s twin brother, a CPS worker, a therapist, and a pediatrician all attest to Luna’s gender identity as a girl. The medical professionals who have seen Luna have recommended she be affirmed and treated as a girl, and it’s Younger who refuses to accept his child’s gender identity.
In April 2017, Luna asked to be referred to by the name Luna. At age 5, Luna was diagnosed by a qualified professional therapist as having gender dysphoria, distress stemming from a mismatch between her birth sex and her gender identity. Her pediatrician noted that at both her 5-year and 6-year checkups, Luna presented as a girl and has been persistent in her gender identity throughout her childhood.
That's at odds with Younger's claims.
Quote:
“The father doesn’t follow the recommendations of the counselor or the pediatrician, and he shames her to try to make her feel bad for wanting to dress as a girl,” Meaders, Georgulas’s attorney, told the court. “Even though the father knows she wants super-long hair, he shaves her head when he has the opportunity and leaves the other twin boy’s hair long,” referring to her twin brother Jude.
That sounds like child abuse, consistent with his character if the court's findings mentioned earlier are correct.
Quote:
“There is no medical intervention of any sort prior to someone hitting puberty,” Dr. Joshua Safer, executive director at the Center for Transgender Medicine and Surgery at Mount Sinai and president of the United States Professional Association for Transgender Health, told Vox. “So small children do not get medicines and small children do not get surgeries, for sure.
Glad he clarified that for us since it seems to get ignored.
Quote:
Boiling under the surface of the custody battle is a medical dispute over how best to treat and support children with gender dysphoria. Younger claimed in court that he supports the “watchful waiting” approach to dysphoric youth. Watchful waiting wasn’t given its name until 2012, but it’s based on an older approach developed by Dutch and Canadian clinicians in the mid-to-late aughts that suggests that parents must ensure their children perform the role of their assigned sex at birth.
Under watchful waiting, a prepubescent trans girl like Luna would be forced to maintain short hair, wear stereotypical boy clothes, form friendships with boys her age, maintain her birth name and pronouns under the belief that it’s statistically likely that her dysphoria will desist by the time puberty begins. If Luna’s dysphoria does persist, only then would she be given puberty blockers, so she can mature before making a more permanent decision on hormone treatment.
Political forces opposed to social transitions for children are fond of saying “let kids be kids” — but watchful waiting seems counterintuitive to that goal.
“Watchful waiting is a deceptive term,” said Kelley Winters, a writer and consultant on issues of gender diversity in medical and public policy, told Vox. “There’s nothing neutral. It’s meant to sound effectively neutral, and there’s nothing neutral about forcing trans kids to spend their childhoods in the closet and grow up with absolutely no memories of being authentically present in their entire childhood.”
The approach is based on older statistics that as many as 80 percent of children with gender dysphoria will eventually desist and grow into cisgender adults. But those numbers, according to Safer, are flawed.
“In terms of that desistance 80 percent comment, that’s an old Dutch study where they didn’t ask the blunt question about your gender identity to these kids,” he said. “They kind of danced around the topic with a bunch of other questions and kind of assumed they knew the gender identities, but I don’t know that it shows much of anything. It just shows that 80 percent of kids who answer questions in a stereotypical way, that you think might be associated with gender identity, end up not being transgender. But there’s a lot of bias in the questions.”
At issue is the fact that when the Dutch and Canadian studies were conducted, the official diagnosis for gender-variant kids was “gender identity disorder.” In order to be diagnosed with GID, a child merely had to display cross-gender dress or behavior, regardless of whether they declared themselves to actually be a member of the opposite sex. The effect of this diagnosis is that cisgender gay and lesbian children, who also frequently display cross-gender preferences without declaring themselves to be the opposite gender before puberty, were caught up in the clinicians’ studies and so of course they would “desist” later on.
Under watchful waiting, a prepubescent trans girl like Luna would be forced to maintain short hair, wear stereotypical boy clothes, form friendships with boys her age, maintain her birth name and pronouns under the belief that it’s statistically likely that her dysphoria will desist by the time puberty begins. If Luna’s dysphoria does persist, only then would she be given puberty blockers, so she can mature before making a more permanent decision on hormone treatment.
Political forces opposed to social transitions for children are fond of saying “let kids be kids” — but watchful waiting seems counterintuitive to that goal.
“Watchful waiting is a deceptive term,” said Kelley Winters, a writer and consultant on issues of gender diversity in medical and public policy, told Vox. “There’s nothing neutral. It’s meant to sound effectively neutral, and there’s nothing neutral about forcing trans kids to spend their childhoods in the closet and grow up with absolutely no memories of being authentically present in their entire childhood.”
The approach is based on older statistics that as many as 80 percent of children with gender dysphoria will eventually desist and grow into cisgender adults. But those numbers, according to Safer, are flawed.
“In terms of that desistance 80 percent comment, that’s an old Dutch study where they didn’t ask the blunt question about your gender identity to these kids,” he said. “They kind of danced around the topic with a bunch of other questions and kind of assumed they knew the gender identities, but I don’t know that it shows much of anything. It just shows that 80 percent of kids who answer questions in a stereotypical way, that you think might be associated with gender identity, end up not being transgender. But there’s a lot of bias in the questions.”
At issue is the fact that when the Dutch and Canadian studies were conducted, the official diagnosis for gender-variant kids was “gender identity disorder.” In order to be diagnosed with GID, a child merely had to display cross-gender dress or behavior, regardless of whether they declared themselves to actually be a member of the opposite sex. The effect of this diagnosis is that cisgender gay and lesbian children, who also frequently display cross-gender preferences without declaring themselves to be the opposite gender before puberty, were caught up in the clinicians’ studies and so of course they would “desist” later on.
So, basically, watchful-waiting was always a flawed approach, based on flawed studies. Science marches on.
Quote:
Similarly, watchful waiting as a concept has been pushed to the fringes in American medicine as of late, as it is seen as needlessly punitive to the child. Instead, what’s more commonly recommended is the affirming method, which allows gender-expansive children to more freely experiment with their gender expression, trying on new names or pronouns as needed. It’s an individualized approach without permanent outcomes. Rather than attempting to fix a prepubescent child’s perceived gender-related “disorder,” the affirming approach, which recommends social transitioning if the child wants it, seeks to lessen the actual dysphoria experienced by the child without medical treatment.
The preferred approach involves letting the kid be themselves. Apparently this is abuse in the eyes of someone like Younger.
Quote:
“The kid isn’t going to brainwash him or herself into being transgender [if their gender identity is affirmed],” Safer said. “They’re going to say how they feel and you can pretty much be respectful and they won’t be railroaded into anything, which I think is the anxiety that people still have, and there was some anxiety in the past in the medical establishment, but I think the medical establishment is getting more and more comfortable that that does not seem like a likely event.”
So it seems the fears that some people are mongering are quite unfounded, at least according to experts.
Quote:
While Texas families with trans kids fear official government retaliation for supporting their children’s transitions, the family at the center of the case is left to deal with the fallout. Lost in the media frenzy and the court dispute has been Luna’s own voice on the matter. “In her young mind, what this boils down to is she thinks that all of this court stuff is so she doesn’t have to cut her hair anymore,” Karen Hirsch, a family friend of Georgulas who is acting as a media contact, told Vox. “That’s what it comes down to for her. She just wants to be a girl. She doesn’t want all of [this] conflict.”
As of last week, Judge Cooks granted Younger an extra school day of custody a week. Hirsch said that Younger dressed Luna as a boy and sent her off to class on Tuesday. When she arrived, “the teacher had extra clothes and said that if you want to change, you may change,” Hirsch said.
And when mom and dad weren’t around and couldn’t influence Luna one way or the other, what did she choose to do?
Hirsch said Luna chose to wear the dress.
As of last week, Judge Cooks granted Younger an extra school day of custody a week. Hirsch said that Younger dressed Luna as a boy and sent her off to class on Tuesday. When she arrived, “the teacher had extra clothes and said that if you want to change, you may change,” Hirsch said.
And when mom and dad weren’t around and couldn’t influence Luna one way or the other, what did she choose to do?
Hirsch said Luna chose to wear the dress.
My money is on James Younger being an unfit parent who would prefer to harm his child rather than affirm her identity.
I'd also say you'd have been better off researching a little deeper to find a less clear-cut case.
27 Jan 2023, 12:49 pm
funeralxempire
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Age: 39
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 25,428
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27 Jan 2023, 1:04 pm
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