What type of people allow a 5 year old to transition!?

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I don't think our whole societes are mass hallucinations. Humans evolved as tribes, not as lone individuals. Without cultures, we couldn't live together in such numbers sharing complex knowledge. Existence of human languages is a solid example of cultures being something very real.
That being said, particular cultures can and do evolve all the time.

So we established that cancelling people for expressing their opinions which might offend some is not ok, as is not ok to send people to the gulags for criticising those in power.

Sending people to the gulags is not the same in magnitude as cancelling people of course. But they are analogous in the sence that both are practices that punish people for expressing their opinions and their effect is to instil self-censorship. I should also add that Communists also practiced cancelling as a form of censorship. Since the party controlled all access to goods and services, it also decided who gets that access. Thus the original meaning of political correctness. Those who were not politically correct were denied access to higher education, job opportunities and other services. Cancelling seek's to do the same within a capitalist framework with bizarre success. Some, like Dave Chapelle or Joe Rogan are able to withstand the pressure, others are not.

I already told you that from now on let's accept the term gender as "cultural perception of sex" for the sake of this discussion.

What is "cancelling people"?
Shows can be cancelled.
People can be ostracized. Or boycotted. Or fired from work. Or banned from a community.
So far, I heard the term "cancelling people" only in contexts similar to how you use it, as some vague scare. Can you explain what it means exactly?

Can you give me examples of what you understand by "cultural perception of sex"? When you do, I can give you examples of what I understand by "cultural level of masculinity/feminity". Just to make sure we are on the same page.

Transparent people; that's who.

About cancelling you can read the Wikipedia article. It describes what I mean with "cancelling" well enough, with specific cases also.

About the way we are going to use the term gender I would suggest to use it in the sence Simone de Beauvoir used it, which is the way the woke are using it. Look it up. Or if you want you can give your own definition. I will go allong either way.

As you wish: Ostracized, boycotted and shunned for being offensive. Is that all?

Also, based on the article, you are incorrect drawing parallels between gulags and "cancelling" because "cancelling" has exactly reverse power balance - those marginalized shun someone more in power.

I read it as a refusal.

That's what the communists said. It is the "working class" taking it's power back. The politically incorrect were the enemy of the "people".



Refusal for what?

So you think no one should advocate for those not in power because that's what communists were claiming they were doing?

For my request.

I believe that there are societal problems that need to be addressed. Intimidating people by cancelling them or calling them out, whichever term you prefer, is not a good way to do that. Personally as a conservative I liked what the Me Too movement did but then you have instances where it was used to punish people for personal reasons, like the Johnny Depp trial showed, "you are a man John, nobody will believe you". Similarly communism was used to settle personal scores. Politics is dangerous to the anonymous individual, it dehumanizes people very easily and very quickly.

I do not understand, what was you request?

There's a difference between what people call "calling out" - expressing that certain behavior was offensive - and "cancelling" - calling for a large-scale shun.
Even the "cancelling" has only as much power as there is support for it. If you find "cancelling" someone wrong, you can refuse to take part in it. Enough people do it and it's futile.

I requested you to give some examples of how you understand gender as "cultural perception of sex" so we could go back to the original topic. Not what someone else thinks about it but how you understand these terms.

I definitely find it wrong and I hope more people will agree with me. I also hope that cancelling will become increasingly powerless with the passing time.



I paraphrased the meaning of Simone de Beauvoir' s meaning of the word, which I understand to be cultural perceptions towards the idea of male and female and also other genders in other cultures. So what is considered feminine behaviour and what is considered masculine behaviour.

Great. As an example, if a man wore frills and makeup in 17th century, it meant he was rich, but when he did the same in the 20th century, he was entering highly tabooed regions of cross-dressing.
Frills and makeup have nothing to do with reproduction but culture could add gendered meaning to them.

So we can get back on track - if there's anyone still willing :/

Definining
Culture: set of beliefs, attitudes and customs commonly accepted by a group of people - for example, a country
Subculture: set of beliefs, attitudes and customs accepted by a small group of those within an existing culture that varies from the majority

What I think I am hearing from Dengashinobi:
I used to feel I lived in a culture that shared my beliefs attitudes and customs. This included letting people say anything they want and police their own behavior without consequences and assigning one of two genders at birth for life. In this culture there is no room for gender transition or more than two genders and so anyone with gender disphoria needs to adapt to their assigned gender in order to stop suffering.

Now I feel that a subculture which punishes people for hurtful words and actions, recognizes multiple genders, and accepts people who choose to change their gender socially, surgically, or chemically as having done so is growing, and attempting to recruit people from my culture through debate and the coercive power of choosing where to spend their money and attention. I do not like this and think it should be stopped.

Possibly because Dengashinobi is afraid of his culture becoming a subculture with little power, which seems possible and I find hopeful. Dengashinobi will not change my mind. It seems unlikely I will change his.

I'm not sure if you're right about Dengashinobi here but I like the landscape you painted.

My position in this landscape: we can afford to spend a lot less human resources on reproduction now, so let's de-genderize big parts of the mainstream culture to ease tensions - and see what happens. That's what my nerd subculture looks like and I think it's good, even if obviously not solving all the possible problems.

Yes sure, but that was fashion. New Wave had a similar effeminate fashion in the 80's. At some point it was abandoned for other fashions. Fashions do not reflect general attitudes of a society. The reasons why women wear make up and high heels are well researched and the reason is because they try to mimick sexually attractive to males physical traits.

Dengashobi is welcome to rebut, but I have little hope for whatever he tries to say reaching me with enough clarity for me to understand it. My attempts to ask him to clarify in this thread have been unsuccessful and in light of recent experience, I do not have energy I wish to expend on continued attempts.

The above is an example of where we disagree and will continue to disagree.

I think fashion is part of culture. I believe that what the majority of straight men find attractive in a culture evolves. Women’s fashion will follow whatever is considered attractive in their culture at that time, and some men will find it unattractive, but by definition, those buying in to the dominant culture will find it attractive - that is what makes it the fashion of the dominant culture.

Last edited by Quantum duck on 31 Jan 2023, 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.