What type of people allow a 5 year old to transition!?

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Agreed in general with what you are saying. My main contesting in this whole debate is whether gender affirmative therapy does indeed help people with gender dysphoria. It seems that the science on the topic is uncertain. Yet, some seem to have revolved it in their minds. Not only that, but they demand that the whole society should comply with their resolution otherwise it doesn't work. Doesn't seem very logical to me. Also we shouldn't forget that there is an ideological motive behind all this. It's the postmodernist inspired idea that reality is what you belive it to be. Everything is a social construct, including gender dysphoria. All it takes to alleviate the condition is to change the social construct about genders that are also a social construct. Absolute nonsense. We live in a world with realities that are beyond our wants, like the two sexes and gender dysphoria as a mental condition that causes great distress and the possibility that nothing can be done about it currently.

Idk think the earliest transition treatment is starteed is closer to pueberty. And as far as I know 5 year olds don't have pueberty so idk do the math.


Also though before the trans stuff, in the 90's lots of interesex children got surgery as infants to affix them to a particular gender, and I have heard on the news there are intersex people now suing about it. Idk if intersex people are real is it such a stretch that trans people are also real and valid?

As a general rule, I don't treat tabloids like credible media outlets. They're not.

It's not that Vox is a perfect source, it's just that they're a credible source. No news source is perfect, they all have biases but tabloids rely more on sensationalism than on accurate or in-depth reporting.

You can always provide a better source than a tabloid.

And of course, we end with more claims that it's all because of woke ideology (which, as usual, remain baseless). Woke ideology appears to be defined as any ideas that make reactionaries throw hissy fits.

Tabloids are not good news sources. I would go for something like Reuters myself.

Gender affirmative therapy does in fact help some people with gender disphoria.

Chemotherapy does in fact help some people with cancer.

Medical treatment is always evolving and sometimes horrible mistakes are made along the way. It is important to pay close attention to individual cases and keep track of outcomes and continue research.

Social transition is fully reversible and is more like religion - I don’t eat shellfish because my religion prohibits it and it is an important part of who I am.

Medical transition is more like science - I don’t eat shellfish because I have an anaphylactic allergy and there is a good chance it would kill me.


“Reality is what you believe it to be” is a concept I see primarily on the extreme right:
“A woman who is raped can just ‘shut the pregnancy down’”
“We are not affecting the climate”
“People choose to be gay”

Social reality is in fact a construct. Society is a set of rules and behaviors set and agreed on by those participating in it - primarily those with power and social capital. It changes when they change or when those with little power have had enough and demand to be seen and treated as equally human. At one time it was social reality that different “races” had different abilities. Italians weren’t “white”. women were not as smart as men and needed to be treated as chattel for their own good. Witches were real. Homosexuality was a mental disorder.

Some realities are beyond our wants - like deafness. But other realities are subject to societal response - like wether deaf children are institutionalized and uneducated, or introduced to a rich social culture that allows them to become happy, functioning adults who contribute to society. And how fully society adapts to and accepts deaf members influences how easy and how happy their lives are. Actually, being trans has something in common with being deaf - some people think medical innovations (like cochlear implants) are good, and some people think they are bad, and most of the decisions are being made by parents and medical personnel who have no first hand experience.

This is what makes me think that transphobes are just choosing to be brain dead and s**t themselves over trans people at this point. People have known about and accepted the existence intersex people for centuries (even if they forced them to present in specific ways, they still have accepted the existence and legitimacy of their condition, to the point they've forced onto children sex changes and the treatments they're denying adult trans people).

There's no reason intersex conditions can't affect people neurologically, which is actually precisely why people are being sued over surgically and hormonally "fixing" intersex kids w/o their consent. An unsettling amount of people with one set of chromosomes or a more prominent set of genitals that were altered to match those characteristics are finding out that they haven't developed an identity matching the gender they were "fixed" to be at all, and have been forced to permanently alter and present themselves in a way that is now irreversible and causing them undue stress, all without their input and consent.

Now these same f*****s that thought they know what's best for intersex people want to assert that it's impossible for someone to neurologically develop in a way that doesn't match their physical characteristics, force trans kids and adults to present and live in a way that they've deemed "acceptable", plus force us to experience the same undue stress that the intersex people they "fixed" as children are experiencing (all while asserting that we want to mutilate children), and they think we should just f*****g give in and listen to these idiots?

Also, before anyone jumps in with "There hasn't been shown to be any neurological differences between males and females," like transphobes often do when this is mentioned, then what do you think is actually stopping someone from identifying as male/female/nonbinary if they feel the desire to do so? If there's absolutely no neurological differences between the sexes, then where the f**k are you deriving harm from doing that? What is governing the supposed male and female specific behaviour that we're supposed to just arbitrarily abide by, is it all just because we have one specific set of chromosomes or genitals? Is it all just socially constructed? If it is, then who gives a s**t? I especially cannot imagine what autistic person would ever give a s**t that people don't want to follow, or can't follow some socially constructed, made up crap.

I don't know much about Vox but every time I've read something politically contested here, it was allways in favour of left ideas. To me it seems quite biased but you wouldn't since it's part of your echoe chamber. I'm not going to defend the New York Post since I already know it's right leaning.

Woke ideology is sh**t and that's a fact. Complete ridiculous nonsense and you cannot even defend it. Because it's impossible to diffend lunacy.

Last edited by Dengashinobi on 28 Jan 2023, 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

And if the shoe fits?

It's also ironic that you chose to complain about the term reactionary while also labelling anything you disagree with as woke or socialist or communist. Aren't those what reactionaries used to call their victims?

Last edited by funeralxempire on 28 Jan 2023, 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

I edited my previous reply but you responded too quickly.

Anyways, how did the shoe fit? What did those people actually do to deserve to be victimised?

I never justified them being victimized, where did you get that from?

I said the label fits. Complaining that the label was used towards people who were victimized isn't a case that the label is inherently problematic.



If that shoe fits, they can wear it.

Dengashinobi

Could you please state in clear, declarative sentences (such as the ones I used in reference to the extreme right) what you believe the indefensible “woke” ideology is as it relates to transgender people and treatment? Particularly children.

Sure, I will try to explain my point of view.

The discussion is about the topic of gender dysphoria and more particularly gender dysphoria in children. We are discussing about what is the best way to treat it. Whatever the best ways to treat the condition may be, it is the scientific research that will lead the way towards that goal. It's e question of epistemology. How do we know? How do we know which is the best course of action?

Scientific method's epistemology is empiricism. The idea that we observe the world through experiment and we draw conclusions, which through further more meticulous experiment could be replaced with new more informed conclusions to dictate a better course of action.

What we call "woke" today is a conglomeration of various schools of thought rooted in the humanities, like sociology, anthropology etc as well as various philosophical and political traditions. They all share a common feature regarding their epistemology which is postmodernism. Postmodernism asserts that there is no objective reality regarding the way we perceive the world. We are individuals who are seeking to influence to their advantage the public discourse as a societal unity. Everything is a social construct formed through the interaction and influencing of those advantage seeking individuals. Language is a social construct. Language controls the way we think and the way we express values. Moral values in turn are a social construct. Science is a social construct, nothing more than a tool for partisan talking points. The talking points being the scientific research and it's outcome.
In a postmodernist world everything is relativistic. There is no objective reality apart from our wants.

This applies in the case of gender dysphoria too. In the postmodernist world the individual chooses reality and in order to accommodate that reality the transgender individual must lobby for changes in the public discourse and the general system of beliefs of the society. If everyone believes that the transgender person is indeed of the chosen gender, then that becomes the reality as far as society is concerned.

That is not going to happen. And the reason is that there is in fact an actual objective reality that does not cater to our wants. Gender dysphoria is indeed a mental illness that causes great distress to the person afflicted. The best that can happen is to leave scientific research to try to find the best course of action in order to alleviate the condition.

The "woke" do not need that since they have already found the solution. Which is to influence the public discourse, including scientific research, language and legislature until it is fully accepted that what an individual states they are, that's what in fact they are.

But reality will hit back. For example trans female athletes will crush biological women when competing in sports. Men will refuse to date trans women. In short the postmodern dream will crush on the wall of reality. The ones to suffer the consequences are the people with gender dysphoria, who could have benefited from a scientific research and a public discourse free of woke political pressure.

I am more liberal on this matter. I don't like the thought of trying to make gender as a whole become politically incorrect but I don't like the thought of gender pressures being forced upon people either. I want to live in a world where gender exists and is allowed to exist without offending the non-binary minority, but I don't like things like some mothers who treat their baby daughters like a doll they can put make-up on and get their ears pierced. It's cruel in my opinion. Girls can make a decision about getting their ears pierced or wear make-up when they're old enough to decide, not while they're clueless babies. One time I watched a video of a baby getting her ears pierced, the poor little thing was crying in pain and all the mother could say was ''I know it hurts but you're going to look beautiful!'' Doesn't she already look beautiful? Put her in a pink dress or something if you want her to look beautiful, because then it won't hurt her. It's bad enough a baby having to have vaccinations but at least they are mandatory and saves the baby's lives. Ear-piercing is not mandatory and should be illegal to get children's bodies pierced without their consent or when they're too young to consent.

I’m sorry dengashinobi, I didn’t ask for an explanation of your thoughts, and many of the terms you used have meanings that vary with user and audience. What I asked for was simple sentences laying out what you think “woke” people believe about transgender people that you find indefensible.

For example, I will make a simple sentence that shows something I think you believe about transgender people that is shown to be untrue by data:

MTF athletes will always perform better than cisgender female athletes.

Btw, yes, men will refuse to date transgender women. Men will refuse to date overweight women. Men will refuse to date super skinny women. Men will refuse to date tall women. Men will refuse to date women with kids. Men will refuse to date women of (insert race). Men will refuse to date women who make more money than they do. Men will refuse to date women who are not virgins. Men will refuse to date women who are virgins. Men will refus3 to date women who do not share their religious or political views.

All of those women are still women. fortunately there are many varieties of men available. Also women. Because you can be trans and gay.

Also I think you believe:

A man is defined by xy chromosomes
A woman is defined by xx chromosomes

(I’m not sure how you categorize people with other chromosomal combinations)

Because all else is in fact able to “cater to our wants” through our ability to surgically and chemically change the human body.

What do you think of this article?

https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/mo ... cally-men/