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firemonkey
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07 Jan 2023, 12:39 am

If we take autism, as currently defined and diagnosed, and add on any co-morbidities we can get a multitude of differing presentations of something labelled with the same name. I have been dxed with ASD (Asperger's) and schizophrenia/schizoaffective. and severe social anxiety(seen as secondary to the schizophrenia/schizoaffective). That makes me somewhat different from someone with ASD +ADHD or ASD + synaesthesia etc etc.
Then with those you can add physical co-morbidities that may occur, and a heterogeneous cognitive profile. Not officially diagnosed but very probable,in my case are dyspraxia,dysgraphia,total aphantasia(spatial?)+ things such as poor coordination,odd gait,mild scoliosis

How far do you split those differing presentations of something currently under the diagnostic umbrella of 'ASD'? At what point does it become too unwieldy and thus counterproductive,given limited resources?



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07 Jan 2023, 2:58 am

firemonkey wrote:
To me it comes across very strongly that some want the autism dx not because they think they have a disability, but as a means of saying 'I'm autistic, therefore I'm a brilliant and superior person'. To them it's a status symbol. IMO it makes absolutely no sense at all to have those who regard it as a 'status symbol' lumped in with the severely disabled, or even a person such as myself. It's certainly not a 'status symbol for me'. My life is not enriched by being autistic.

To me, the problem is not the Autism wannabes but the perception that there is a massive amount of autism wannabes. This perception has not diminished in the almost 10 years I have been on this site. This perception has led to negative consequences I have read about all too often.

1. For many, the neurodiversity movement is defined by wannabees who are elitists and supremacists who throw "real autistics" under the bus. A combination of this belief and self-esteem issues is toxic.

2. Family and Friends that discourage diagnoses, and dismiss diagnoses when they do occur because Autism is trendy so seeking one means you are an attention seeker or drama queen, seeking an excuse to be an as*hole.

3. And worst of all people that have been diagnosed believe that they have faked themselves and the clinician who diagnosed them. That really they are a type of people listed in number 2. These beliefs delay if not stop benefits a diagnosis can provide. These posts are the most heartbreaking autism-related posts I read on this site. I have never gotten used to them.

The above is not a denial that Autism/Aspie Supremacists do exist. I have read their posts but as mentioned they are a small minority here. I have heard there are Tumblr bubbles with those types of people. Most concerning to me are parents who say their kids have Autistic "superpowers". It is a very positive-sounding way of dehumanizing people.

At some point whether it's supremacist adults or spoiled brat kids they are going to run into the real world where Autistic traits impair and negative assumptions or unrealistic expectations about them are based on stereotypes and they will be unprepared to handle them.



I am going to repeat myself now but none of us knows the future, none of us knows if science via genetics or brain imaging will find autism really is really multiple conditions. There are many conditions with radically different presentations, and most if not all conditions present radically different "severities" necessitating different treatments. What you don't have in most cases is people with these conditions believing others with the same condition have different conditions. But a lot of us labeled autistic do. I see more harm than good coming of it.


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07 Jan 2023, 3:09 am

Yet another thread about labels and language. Do what works for you. Stop dragging people who are doing worse than you into your your personal problems.

If you are squeamish about being lumped into "undesirable" categories or labels then use your "superior brains" to explain to NTs why you are different, Don't expect the world to move mountains to accommodate your own foibles.



firemonkey
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07 Jan 2023, 4:36 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
To me it comes across very strongly that some want the autism dx not because they think they have a disability, but as a means of saying 'I'm autistic, therefore I'm a brilliant and superior person'. To them it's a status symbol. IMO it makes absolutely no sense at all to have those who regard it as a 'status symbol' lumped in with the severely disabled, or even a person such as myself. It's certainly not a 'status symbol for me'. My life is not enriched by being autistic.



The above is not a denial that Autism/Aspie Supremacists do exist. I have read their posts but as mentioned they are a small minority here. I have heard there are Tumblr bubbles with those types of people. Most concerning to me are parents who say their kids have Autistic "superpowers". It is a very positive-sounding way of dehumanizing people.

At some point whether it's supremacist adults or spoiled brat kids they are going to run into the real world where Autistic traits impair and negative assumptions or unrealistic expectations about them are based on stereotypes and they will be unprepared to handle them.



When it comes to just a plain count of numbers I don't disagree with that. However that 'small minority', whether here or elsewhere, has a level of influence greater than the sum of its numbers.



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07 Jan 2023, 10:00 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
firemonkey wrote:

2. Family and Friends that discourage diagnoses, and dismiss diagnoses when they do occur because Autism is trendy so seeking one means you are an attention seeker or drama queen, seeking an excuse to be an as*hole.



Yes. This. I have been through a lot with my 5 children and when I try to tell them I am autistic (and that might be some of my struggle with mothering and losing my temper, being stressed out, etc.) they scoff and say that I am 'not autistic', sometimes because they perceive autists in only the stereotypical movie ways, or that you have to be a Sheldon-type or a nerdy programmer? Or there is that suggestion that I am just trying to make myself 'special' or something, and that I could never be a 'real autist' because in their generation everyone is diagnosis-happy ?

Anyway, it's presented sort-of a stumbling block because my 5th child is definitely autistic with some of the sensory and social awkwardness that accompany it. But I cannot bring it up to anyone in that family system (or my ex) because they immediately jump on me as if I am trying to label him with something that is completely farfetched. It's just another way I continue to be invalidated in my life. I have become an expert at being invalidated. which is actually humbling and helpful for ego-annihilation. :)


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07 Jan 2023, 12:37 pm

firemonkey wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
To me it comes across very strongly that some want the autism dx not because they think they have a disability, but as a means of saying 'I'm autistic, therefore I'm a brilliant and superior person'. To them it's a status symbol. IMO it makes absolutely no sense at all to have those who regard it as a 'status symbol' lumped in with the severely disabled, or even a person such as myself. It's certainly not a 'status symbol for me'. My life is not enriched by being autistic.



The above is not a denial that Autism/Aspie Supremacists do exist. I have read their posts but as mentioned they are a small minority here. I have heard there are Tumblr bubbles with those types of people. Most concerning to me are parents who say their kids have Autistic "superpowers". It is a very positive-sounding way of dehumanizing people.

At some point whether it's supremacist adults or spoiled brat kids they are going to run into the real world where Autistic traits impair and negative assumptions or unrealistic expectations about them are based on stereotypes and they will be unprepared to handle them.



When it comes to just a plain count of numbers I don't disagree with that. However that 'small minority', whether here or elsewhere, has a level of influence greater than the sum of its numbers.

Where is the influence? In research where most of the money is going to find ways to mitigate autism(since curing Autism seems out reach for the foreseeable future), in the schools here in America where ABA “treatments” have a monopoly, in your country where hundreds of people have been locked up in psych wards and institutions for years, in discourse where “autistic” is replacing the politically incorrect “ret*d”?

Like I mentioned it exits with overprotective parents and in some media portrayals. Most of the influence they have is what we have chosen to give them because we think they are more then they are. Social media has a role in this false perception that can’t be ignored.


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07 Jan 2023, 12:51 pm

MissMary227 wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
firemonkey wrote:

2. Family and Friends that discourage diagnoses, and dismiss diagnoses when they do occur because Autism is trendy so seeking one means you are an attention seeker or drama queen, seeking an excuse to be an as*hole.



Yes. This. I have been through a lot with my 5 children and when I try to tell them I am autistic (and that might be some of my struggle with mothering and losing my temper, being stressed out, etc.) they scoff and say that I am 'not autistic', sometimes because they perceive autists in only the stereotypical movie ways, or that you have to be a Sheldon-type or a nerdy programmer? Or there is that suggestion that I am just trying to make myself 'special' or something, and that I could never be a 'real autist' because in their generation everyone is diagnosis-happy ?

Anyway, it's presented sort-of a stumbling block because my 5th child is definitely autistic with some of the sensory and social awkwardness that accompany it. But I cannot bring it up to anyone in that family system (or my ex) because they immediately jump on me as if I am trying to label him with something that is completely farfetched. It's just another way I continue to be invalidated in my life. I have become an expert at being invalidated. which is actually humbling and helpful for ego-annihilation. :)

Most adults by the time they are 30 unless they are a hermit or in a bubble are going to have delusions of Autistic grandeur dispelled.


Autistics have is terribly high depression/suicide ideation/suicide rates. Higher then people with other disabilities. That does not sound like supremacist beliefs to me.

IMHO most of this supremacism is an overcorrecting coping mechanism for poor self esteem.


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07 Jan 2023, 12:54 pm

No problem. It is what it is.



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08 Jan 2023, 3:43 am

There is the issue of self esteem, especially with those with high functioning autism. Or how they call it in positive psychology, self compassion. If a high functioning autistic person can live a fulfilling life with Autism, then they should give it a try, I believe. Because it is tough on the individual to live their life fixating on their shortcomings, the negatively impacting aspects of autism. This fosters dissatisfaction and ultimately helplessness. If for a person there is a possibility to focus on their strengths instead of their weaknesses, then they should be allowed to persue that.



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08 Jan 2023, 6:59 am

Dengashinobi wrote:
There is the issue of self esteem, especially with those with high functioning autism. Or how they call it in positive psychology, self compassion. If a high functioning autistic person can live a fulfilling life with Autism, then they should give it a try, I believe. Because it is tough on the individual to live their life fixating on their shortcomings, the negatively impacting aspects of autism. This fosters dissatisfaction and ultimately helplessness. If for a person there is a possibility to focus on their strengths instead of their weaknesses, then they should be allowed to persue that.


Nothing wrong with that in fact it should be encouraged to make the best of what you have.

The problem is the "identity" aspect of things. Some people feel they have to be a living embodiment of their label and by virtue of their label suddenly have the right to speak over everyone else's heads dictating things that effect other people irrespective of different views (see video).

Normally such people would be ignored and marginalised as a bit crazy, but it seems as suggested by the video their views and demands are loud and being interpreted as representing all autistic people.

This is starting to have a negative effect on those with more disabling autism, with their struggles being trivialised (and all the risks that brings) and medical research to help them being hindered.

I believe that there is the main issue


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MissMary227
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08 Jan 2023, 7:36 am

cyberdad wrote:
Yet another thread about labels and language. Do what works for you. Stop dragging people who are doing worse than you into your your personal problems.

If you are squeamish about being lumped into "undesirable" categories or labels then use your "superior brains" to explain to NTs why you are different, Don't expect the world to move mountains to accommodate your own foibles.


Very well said. I propose that instead of the concept of 'neurodiversity' we sub in the concept of 'transgenderism' and apply the things you all have said in this thread to that, for a thought experiment. For example:

"Yet another thread about labels and language. Do what works for you. Stop dragging people who are doing worse than you into your personal problems.

If you are squeamish about being lumped into "undesirable" categories or pronouns then use your "superior brains" to explain to the rest of us why you are different, don't expect the world to move mountains to accomodate your own foibles."


Why can't we have the discussion about the elephant in the room here? Many of you identify as the opposite sex. That is a far greater issue in this world than being on the spectrum. But you don't want to talk about it in the light of day. Why is that?


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08 Jan 2023, 10:37 am

MissMary227 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Yet another thread about labels and language. Do what works for you. Stop dragging people who are doing worse than you into your your personal problems.

If you are squeamish about being lumped into "undesirable" categories or labels then use your "superior brains" to explain to NTs why you are different, Don't expect the world to move mountains to accommodate your own foibles.


Very well said. I propose that instead of the concept of 'neurodiversity' we sub in the concept of 'transgenderism' and apply the things you all have said in this thread to that, for a thought experiment. For example:

"Yet another thread about labels and language. Do what works for you. Stop dragging people who are doing worse than you into your personal problems.

If you are squeamish about being lumped into "undesirable" categories or pronouns then use your "superior brains" to explain to the rest of us why you are different, don't expect the world to move mountains to accomodate your own foibles."


Why can't we have the discussion about the elephant in the room here? Many of you identify as the opposite sex. That is a far greater issue in this world than being on the spectrum. But you don't want to talk about it in the light of day. Why is that?


All this practice of "sanitizing language", be it about transgenderism or autism or anything else, reminds me of George Orwell's book 1984 where there is this term "newspeak" which in the book describes how this unspecified ideology tries to control language by changing the meaning of the words, to a point that any discussion would have to conform to the ideology. He wrote it as part of a fiction almost a century ago and here we are actually living that in real life. I have no idea how he could have possibly predicted that. Was it something he observed during his time also? To me this is a dangerous thing because we won't be able to point at reality anymore. I mean now someone can say men "give birth", wile in reality it is "women with gender disforia who have undergone medical procedures to look like men and who identify as men, give birth".



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08 Jan 2023, 12:49 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
MissMary227 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Yet another thread about labels and language. Do what works for you. Stop dragging people who are doing worse than you into your your personal problems.

If you are squeamish about being lumped into "undesirable" categories or labels then use your "superior brains" to explain to NTs why you are different, Don't expect the world to move mountains to accommodate your own foibles.


Very well said. I propose that instead of the concept of 'neurodiversity' we sub in the concept of 'transgenderism' and apply the things you all have said in this thread to that, for a thought experiment. For example:

"Yet another thread about labels and language. Do what works for you. Stop dragging people who are doing worse than you into your personal problems.

If you are squeamish about being lumped into "undesirable" categories or pronouns then use your "superior brains" to explain to the rest of us why you are different, don't expect the world to move mountains to accomodate your own foibles."


Why can't we have the discussion about the elephant in the room here? Many of you identify as the opposite sex. That is a far greater issue in this world than being on the spectrum. But you don't want to talk about it in the light of day. Why is that?


All this practice of "sanitizing language", be it about transgenderism or autism or anything else, reminds me of George Orwell's book 1984 where there is this term "newspeak" which in the book describes how this unspecified ideology tries to control language by changing the meaning of the words, to a point that any discussion would have to conform to the ideology. He wrote it as part of a fiction almost a century ago and here we are actually living that in real life. I have no idea how he could have possibly predicted that. Was it something he observed during his time also? To me this is a dangerous thing because we won't be able to point at reality anymore. I mean now someone can say men "give birth", wile in reality it is "women with gender disforia who have undergone medical procedures to look like men and who identify as men, give birth".


Interesting. Thank you. I actually don't think I ever read that book. 8O


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08 Jan 2023, 2:23 pm

MissMary227 wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
MissMary227 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Yet another thread about labels and language. Do what works for you. Stop dragging people who are doing worse than you into your your personal problems.

If you are squeamish about being lumped into "undesirable" categories or labels then use your "superior brains" to explain to NTs why you are different, Don't expect the world to move mountains to accommodate your own foibles.


Very well said. I propose that instead of the concept of 'neurodiversity' we sub in the concept of 'transgenderism' and apply the things you all have said in this thread to that, for a thought experiment. For example:

"Yet another thread about labels and language. Do what works for you. Stop dragging people who are doing worse than you into your personal problems.

If you are squeamish about being lumped into "undesirable" categories or pronouns then use your "superior brains" to explain to the rest of us why you are different, don't expect the world to move mountains to accomodate your own foibles."


Why can't we have the discussion about the elephant in the room here? Many of you identify as the opposite sex. That is a far greater issue in this world than being on the spectrum. But you don't want to talk about it in the light of day. Why is that?


All this practice of "sanitizing language", be it about transgenderism or autism or anything else, reminds me of George Orwell's book 1984 where there is this term "newspeak" which in the book describes how this unspecified ideology tries to control language by changing the meaning of the words, to a point that any discussion would have to conform to the ideology. He wrote it as part of a fiction almost a century ago and here we are actually living that in real life. I have no idea how he could have possibly predicted that. Was it something he observed during his time also? To me this is a dangerous thing because we won't be able to point at reality anymore. I mean now someone can say men "give birth", wile in reality it is "women with gender disforia who have undergone medical procedures to look like men and who identify as men, give birth".


Interesting. Thank you. I actually don't think I ever read that book. 8O


I think you would like it if you read it. It is a seminal book that warns the world of the danger that comes from a totalitarian state, what the free world fears. It has coined terms like: the big brother, thought police, newspeak, double thought, ministry of truth etc. Outlandish as these may sound, we are actually living them now days, shockingly enough.



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08 Jan 2023, 3:16 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
MissMary227 wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
MissMary227 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Yet another thread about labels and language. Do what works for you. Stop dragging people who are doing worse than you into your your personal problems.

If you are squeamish about being lumped into "undesirable" categories or labels then use your "superior brains" to explain to NTs why you are different, Don't expect the world to move mountains to accommodate your own foibles.


Very well said. I propose that instead of the concept of 'neurodiversity' we sub in the concept of 'transgenderism' and apply the things you all have said in this thread to that, for a thought experiment. For example:

"Yet another thread about labels and language. Do what works for you. Stop dragging people who are doing worse than you into your personal problems.

If you are squeamish about being lumped into "undesirable" categories or pronouns then use your "superior brains" to explain to the rest of us why you are different, don't expect the world to move mountains to accomodate your own foibles."


Why can't we have the discussion about the elephant in the room here? Many of you identify as the opposite sex. That is a far greater issue in this world than being on the spectrum. But you don't want to talk about it in the light of day. Why is that?


All this practice of "sanitizing language", be it about transgenderism or autism or anything else, reminds me of George Orwell's book 1984 where there is this term "newspeak" which in the book describes how this unspecified ideology tries to control language by changing the meaning of the words, to a point that any discussion would have to conform to the ideology. He wrote it as part of a fiction almost a century ago and here we are actually living that in real life. I have no idea how he could have possibly predicted that. Was it something he observed during his time also? To me this is a dangerous thing because we won't be able to point at reality anymore. I mean now someone can say men "give birth", wile in reality it is "women with gender disforia who have undergone medical procedures to look like men and who identify as men, give birth".


Interesting. Thank you. I actually don't think I ever read that book. 8O


I think you would like it if you read it. It is a seminal book that warns the world of the danger that comes from a totalitarian state, what the free world fears. It has coined terms like: the big brother, thought police, newspeak, double thought, ministry of truth etc. Outlandish as these may sound, we are actually living them now days, shockingly enough.


He got a lot of his ideas from the USSR, he died in 1950 probably around the time of Stalin`s 5 year plan that saw them become a superpower with all the associated atrocities.

I`ve not read any of his books but got a rough idea of what they are about and so called "orwellian society" or "orwellian language" that often gets mentioned.

I recommend the cartoon animal farm (attached), its a very good simple representation of his work if anyone doesn't have time to read.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaVTC0C5UlM


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08 Jan 2023, 3:58 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
MissMary227 wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
MissMary227 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Yet another thread about labels and language. Do what works for you. Stop dragging people who are doing worse than you into your your personal problems.

If you are squeamish about being lumped into "undesirable" categories or labels then use your "superior brains" to explain to NTs why you are different, Don't expect the world to move mountains to accommodate your own foibles.


Very well said. I propose that instead of the concept of 'neurodiversity' we sub in the concept of 'transgenderism' and apply the things you all have said in this thread to that, for a thought experiment. For example:

"Yet another thread about labels and language. Do what works for you. Stop dragging people who are doing worse than you into your personal problems.

If you are squeamish about being lumped into "undesirable" categories or pronouns then use your "superior brains" to explain to the rest of us why you are different, don't expect the world to move mountains to accomodate your own foibles."


Why can't we have the discussion about the elephant in the room here? Many of you identify as the opposite sex. That is a far greater issue in this world than being on the spectrum. But you don't want to talk about it in the light of day. Why is that?


All this practice of "sanitizing language", be it about transgenderism or autism or anything else, reminds me of George Orwell's book 1984 where there is this term "newspeak" which in the book describes how this unspecified ideology tries to control language by changing the meaning of the words, to a point that any discussion would have to conform to the ideology. He wrote it as part of a fiction almost a century ago and here we are actually living that in real life. I have no idea how he could have possibly predicted that. Was it something he observed during his time also? To me this is a dangerous thing because we won't be able to point at reality anymore. I mean now someone can say men "give birth", wile in reality it is "women with gender disforia who have undergone medical procedures to look like men and who identify as men, give birth".


Interesting. Thank you. I actually don't think I ever read that book. 8O


I think you would like it if you read it. It is a seminal book that warns the world of the danger that comes from a totalitarian state, what the free world fears. It has coined terms like: the big brother, thought police, newspeak, double thought, ministry of truth etc. Outlandish as these may sound, we are actually living them now days, shockingly enough.


It's nice to know where those terms came from.
I prolly won't read it because I really just like to read the bible or non-fiction missions or microbes books. :D
Unless I were in a relationship and my S.O. 'made' me read it. :P


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