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auntblabby
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30 Dec 2022, 8:30 am

many libertarians i've met were decidedly ableist types who looked down their noses at people who weren't successful like themselves.



Dengashinobi
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30 Dec 2022, 10:37 am

carlos55 wrote:
I think the key here with libertarianism is deciding what you want the government to do and not to do.

Too much of either is going to be a bad thing

So basic services including health and transport yes

Interfering and micro managing no


I'm not so sure about health and transport, they cost too much and there is always mismanagement from the state because there is no incentive to save. There is nothing the state can do that the private can't do better and at a lower cost.



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30 Dec 2022, 10:44 am

auntblabby wrote:
many libertarians i've met were decidedly ableist types who looked down their noses at people who weren't successful like themselves.


I'm not an ableist personally. And I don't think libertarianism (classical liberalism) comes from "ableistic" concerns. Libertarianism's main concern is the possibility of a tyranny raising out of an overly expanded state.



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30 Dec 2022, 10:55 am

Dengashinobi wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
many libertarians i've met were decidedly ableist types who looked down their noses at people who weren't successful like themselves.


I'm not an ableist personally. And I don't think libertarianism (classical liberalism) comes from "ableistic" concerns. Libertarianism's main concern is the possibility of a tyranny raising out of an overly expanded state.


Then why would Libertarians point to Texas as an example of liberty when basically half the population there doesn't have bodily autonomy anymore due to government interference? That is confusing.


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30 Dec 2022, 11:45 am

Deciding what should be personal / government responsibility comes down possibly to natural profit industries. Speaking from the UK where certain things that were nationalised became privatised which were probably a mistake

So privatising the railways led to a huge rise in rail fares (highest in world i believe) and a relatively still poor service.

Privatising BP (oil company ) however was probably the right thing to do.

I cant see any profit in disability or healthcare , unless reliant on health insurance which costs a fortune and can have some nasty get out clauses leading to people being financially ruined to save their own life.

Its only fictional movie portrayal i know but probably goes on - i seem to remember one of the saw movies depicting an unscrupulous health insurance company looking for get out clauses to deny people essential treatment


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30 Dec 2022, 12:52 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
many libertarians i've met were decidedly ableist types who looked down their noses at people who weren't successful like themselves.


I'm not an ableist personally. And I don't think libertarianism (classical liberalism) comes from "ableistic" concerns. Libertarianism's main concern is the possibility of a tyranny raising out of an overly expanded state.


Then why would Libertarians point to Texas as an example of liberty when basically half the population there doesn't have bodily autonomy anymore due to government interference? That is confusing.


Body autonomy is indeed a Libertarian argument. Those who oppose it are mostly concerned with the possibility that the baby is not part of the body of the mother but consists another individual and therefore an abortion would mean to kill that individual. Personally I find it a difficult topic. Both sides have good arguments. I find myself unable to form a definite opinion for either side. I don't know what to tell you about this honestly.



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30 Dec 2022, 1:17 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
I think the key here with libertarianism is deciding what you want the government to do and not to do.

Too much of either is going to be a bad thing

So basic services including health and transport yes

Interfering and micro managing no


I'm not so sure about health and transport, they cost too much and there is always mismanagement from the state because there is no incentive to save. There is nothing the state can do that the private can't do better and at a lower cost.


As someone who has worked many times at the crux between state and private services for decades, I do not agree.

There is no money to be made providing services to people with disabilities because what many need is not only expensive, but lasts a lifetime. How do you propose to provide services for someone with cerebral palsy, with high physical needs that last a lifetime?

When healthcare, even for "able" people is privatized, services are restricted and cut drastically.


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Dengashinobi
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30 Dec 2022, 4:09 pm

blazingstar wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
I think the key here with libertarianism is deciding what you want the government to do and not to do.

Too much of either is going to be a bad thing

So basic services including health and transport yes

Interfering and micro managing no


I'm not so sure about health and transport, they cost too much and there is always mismanagement from the state because there is no incentive to save. There is nothing the state can do that the private can't do better and at a lower cost.


As someone who has worked many times at the crux between state and private services for decades, I do not agree.

There is no money to be made providing services to people with disabilities because what many need is not only expensive, but lasts a lifetime. How do you propose to provide services for someone with cerebral palsy, with high physical needs that last a lifetime?

When healthcare, even for "able" people is privatized, services are restricted and cut drastically.


So ok, there is no money to be made providing health care services to people with disabilities because there is no profit. Providing these services must be an act of charity since there is no profit. Using the state to provide those services is not a charity. Because in order to access the resources it takes to provide those services, the state takes peoples money under threat of incarceration and other penalties. If the individual refuses arrest and choses to confront the low enforcement officers in order to preserve their freedom, then the officers are entitled to shoot them dead, possibly. Therefore the state takes peoples money under threat of their lives. It doesn't sound fair to me. This sounds like serfdom.



carlos55
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30 Dec 2022, 5:21 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
blazingstar wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
I think the key here with libertarianism is deciding what you want the government to do and not to do.

Too much of either is going to be a bad thing

So basic services including health and transport yes

Interfering and micro managing no


I'm not so sure about health and transport, they cost too much and there is always mismanagement from the state because there is no incentive to save. There is nothing the state can do that the private can't do better and at a lower cost.


As someone who has worked many times at the crux between state and private services for decades, I do not agree.

There is no money to be made providing services to people with disabilities because what many need is not only expensive, but lasts a lifetime. How do you propose to provide services for someone with cerebral palsy, with high physical needs that last a lifetime?

When healthcare, even for "able" people is privatized, services are restricted and cut drastically.


So ok, there is no money to be made providing health care services to people with disabilities because there is no profit. Providing these services must be an act of charity since there is no profit. Using the state to provide those services is not a charity. Because in order to access the resources it takes to provide those services, the state takes peoples money under threat of incarceration and other penalties. If the individual refuses arrest and choses to confront the low enforcement officers in order to preserve their freedom, then the officers are entitled to shoot them dead, possibly. Therefore the state takes peoples money under threat of their lives. It doesn't sound fair to me. This sounds like serfdom.


Healthcare including disabilities costs 100`s of billions for a large country so cannot be a charity. Why stop at health care what about the army or police, would that be a charity too?.

Also private companies with a monopoly control that replace national companies just end up ripping off the government. So what's the point in making it private in the first place. Nationalise the NHS and pay 100 billion a year to run it, or make it private & pay the private company 100 billion to run it, what's the difference?

Private companies rip off governments also, i saw a documentary on US troops in Iraq a few years ago. They had something in place called cost plus i believe it was called, where they paid private contractors to do a lot of the non combat military jobs like transport.

They said when a big truck had a flat tyre they didn't change the tyre rather they blew up the truck & got a new one all paid by the US government with profit because they could no questions were asked.

So that's what private running can look like


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Dengashinobi
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30 Dec 2022, 7:06 pm

carlos55 wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
blazingstar wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
I think the key here with libertarianism is deciding what you want the government to do and not to do.

Too much of either is going to be a bad thing

So basic services including health and transport yes

Interfering and micro managing no


I'm not so sure about health and transport, they cost too much and there is always mismanagement from the state because there is no incentive to save. There is nothing the state can do that the private can't do better and at a lower cost.


As someone who has worked many times at the crux between state and private services for decades, I do not agree.

There is no money to be made providing services to people with disabilities because what many need is not only expensive, but lasts a lifetime. How do you propose to provide services for someone with cerebral palsy, with high physical needs that last a lifetime?

When healthcare, even for "able" people is privatized, services are restricted and cut drastically.


So ok, there is no money to be made providing health care services to people with disabilities because there is no profit. Providing these services must be an act of charity since there is no profit. Using the state to provide those services is not a charity. Because in order to access the resources it takes to provide those services, the state takes peoples money under threat of incarceration and other penalties. If the individual refuses arrest and choses to confront the low enforcement officers in order to preserve their freedom, then the officers are entitled to shoot them dead, possibly. Therefore the state takes peoples money under threat of their lives. It doesn't sound fair to me. This sounds like serfdom.


Healthcare including disabilities costs 100`s of billions for a large country so cannot be a charity. Why stop at health care what about the army or police, would that be a charity too?.

Also private companies with a monopoly control that replace national companies just end up ripping off the government. So what's the point in making it private in the first place. Nationalise the NHS and pay 100 billion a year to run it, or make it private & pay the private company 100 billion to run it, what's the difference?

Private companies rip off governments also, i saw a documentary on US troops in Iraq a few years ago. They had something in place called cost plus i believe it was called, where they paid private contractors to do a lot of the non combat military jobs like transport.

They said when a big truck had a flat tyre they didn't change the tyre rather they blew up the truck & got a new one all paid by the US government with profit because they could no questions were asked.

So that's what private running can look like


Police and army are probably the only reason why we need a state at all. As John Locke said (paraphrasing here) police is necessary for preventing a state of anarchy where certain individuals use violence in order to extort others. While the army is needed for protection against foreign aggression. All the rest is unnecessary really. As for the corporation's that get contracts by the state, that's not free market. That is cronyism generated by an enlarged state. All these are abuses that need an expanded state in order to exist.



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30 Dec 2022, 8:45 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
blazingstar wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
I think the key here with libertarianism is deciding what you want the government to do and not to do.

Too much of either is going to be a bad thing

So basic services including health and transport yes

Interfering and micro managing no


I'm not so sure about health and transport, they cost too much and there is always mismanagement from the state because there is no incentive to save. There is nothing the state can do that the private can't do better and at a lower cost.


As someone who has worked many times at the crux between state and private services for decades, I do not agree.

There is no money to be made providing services to people with disabilities because what many need is not only expensive, but lasts a lifetime. How do you propose to provide services for someone with cerebral palsy, with high physical needs that last a lifetime?

When healthcare, even for "able" people is privatized, services are restricted and cut drastically.


So ok, there is no money to be made providing health care services to people with disabilities because there is no profit. Providing these services must be an act of charity since there is no profit. Using the state to provide those services is not a charity. Because in order to access the resources it takes to provide those services, the state takes peoples money under threat of incarceration and other penalties. If the individual refuses arrest and choses to confront the low enforcement officers in order to preserve their freedom, then the officers are entitled to shoot them dead, possibly. Therefore the state takes peoples money under threat of their lives. It doesn't sound fair to me. This sounds like serfdom.


So how would you suggest ensuring that the millions of people with severe developmental disabilities be cared for?

It’s not a matter of no profit. It’s a huge expense.


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auntblabby
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31 Dec 2022, 3:20 am

Dengashinobi wrote:
I'm not so sure about health and transport, they cost too much and there is always mismanagement from the state because there is no incentive to save. There is nothing the state can do that the private can't do better and at a lower cost.

then why haven't they? it is because there isn't enough profit doing things that actually help the working class, that is not where the money is at.



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31 Dec 2022, 3:21 am

Dengashinobi wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
many libertarians i've met were decidedly ableist types who looked down their noses at people who weren't successful like themselves.


I'm not an ableist personally. And I don't think libertarianism (classical liberalism) comes from "ableistic" concerns. Libertarianism's main concern is the possibility of a tyranny raising out of an overly expanded state.

what about tyranny coming from regular citizens gotten too rich and big for their britches to where they feel invulnerable when they exploit those with less money and power? libertarianism has nothing to say about that.



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31 Dec 2022, 4:00 am

auntblabby wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
many libertarians i've met were decidedly ableist types who looked down their noses at people who weren't successful like themselves.


I'm not an ableist personally. And I don't think libertarianism (classical liberalism) comes from "ableistic" concerns. Libertarianism's main concern is the possibility of a tyranny raising out of an overly expanded state.

what about tyranny coming from regular citizens gotten too rich and big for their britches to where they feel invulnerable when they exploit those with less money and power? libertarianism has nothing to say about that.


Tyranny that comes from rich individuals, while possible theoretically, it's either impossible in reality or very rare because I can't recollect such an instance. On the other hand, tyranny that comes from a government with expanded jurisdiction, seems to be quite common. See the 20-th century.



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31 Dec 2022, 4:13 am

blazingstar wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
blazingstar wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
I think the key here with libertarianism is deciding what you want the government to do and not to do.

Too much of either is going to be a bad thing

So basic services including health and transport yes

Interfering and micro managing no


I'm not so sure about health and transport, they cost too much and there is always mismanagement from the state because there is no incentive to save. There is nothing the state can do that the private can't do better and at a lower cost.


As someone who has worked many times at the crux between state and private services for decades, I do not agree.

There is no money to be made providing services to people with disabilities because what many need is not only expensive, but lasts a lifetime. How do you propose to provide services for someone with cerebral palsy, with high physical needs that last a lifetime?

When healthcare, even for "able" people is privatized, services are restricted and cut drastically.


So ok, there is no money to be made providing health care services to people with disabilities because there is no profit. Providing these services must be an act of charity since there is no profit. Using the state to provide those services is not a charity. Because in order to access the resources it takes to provide those services, the state takes peoples money under threat of incarceration and other penalties. If the individual refuses arrest and choses to confront the low enforcement officers in order to preserve their freedom, then the officers are entitled to shoot them dead, possibly. Therefore the state takes peoples money under threat of their lives. It doesn't sound fair to me. This sounds like serfdom.


So how would you suggest ensuring that the millions of people with severe developmental disabilities be cared for?

It’s not a matter of no profit. It’s a huge expense.


I would say that charity would be the best way. There are plenty of people who voluntarily want to give their money for a good cause. Those with severe disabilities should be prioritised and then it should be expanded. This way is so much better because nobody gets coerced and there is a sense of personal involvement and togetherness.



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31 Dec 2022, 7:29 pm

carlos55 wrote:
You would think so as a libertarian myself

You're a libertarian???

You seem more like a moderate on economic issues.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 31 Dec 2022, 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.