How can I form a real romantic relationship?

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Werewolf1061C
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18 Jan 2023, 6:57 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Werewolf1061C wrote:
I am not a shy person and I easily make friends and flirt with other people. I am not a virgin by any stretch of the imagination, and I am capable of forming deep friendships which last for years or even decades. However, I have never had a serious romantic relationship. I tend to either fall in love with people who are unavailable or push away people who fall in love with me. I do not know why this is, but I suspect that it may have something to do with my deeply ingrained masking behavior. I got a score of 130 on the CAT-Q, which explains why people usually label me as generally "weird" instead of specifically "autistic".

I think most autistic adults, in general, are seen by most people as "weird" rather than specifically "autistic," regardless of how much we mask. The only differences are in how obviously "weird" we are and how much we stress over it.

Werewolf1061C wrote:
Does anyone else have a similar experience? If so, can you shed some light on why it is so difficult to experience genuine intimacy?

My experiences are very different from yours, insofar as I have had a very different life strategy. But perhaps the following might shed some light on why you have such difficulty experiencing emotional intimacy, and what you can do about it.

My own life strategy has been the opposite of relying on masking. Instead of trying to be normal, I have usually, whenever possible, preferred to seek out situations where I could get away with being an oddball. Throughout my adult life, my social life has revolved around the search for fellow oddballs of one kind or another. As a result of this life strategy, I've been able to achieve emotional intimacy with a number of people, both in romantic relationships and in friendships.

Emotional intimacy, by definition, involves the mutual sharing of deep aspects of ourselves. Hence emotional intimacy, by definition, is incompatible with relying too much on masking.

Werewolf1061C wrote:
And is there a way to stop being afraid of this?

One possible way to learn to experience genuine emotional intimacy: Just keep participating in support groups, both in-person and online (including forums like Wrong Planet).

In a support group/forum, it is easy to experience a relatively safe, one-dimensional kind of emotional intimacy, in isolation from the other aspects of a friendship or romantic relationship. A support group is all about sharing aspects of ourselves that we normally hide from the world -- and that is emotional intimacy, by definition.

Perhaps enough experience with this one-dimensional kind of emotional intimacy may make it easier for you to experience emotional intimacy in other, more multi-dimensional contexts too, such as friendships and eventually a romantic relationship?

* * * * * * * * *

EDIT:
Because you mentioned that you've been able to have deep and lasting friendships, I suspect that perhaps your main source of difficulty with attaining romantic love might not be difficulties with emotional intimacy after all. Rather, I suspect that your main problem might be your beliefs about romantic love, e.g. confusing sustainable romantic love with mutual infatuation? See my next post, below.


Some very interesting ideas here. I have noticed that when I am around friends I do not have to mask as much around (people who share my special interests or enjoy being around oddballs such as myself) it is so much easier to have a really deep conversation and feel very close to them. But I think you are right that the emotional intimacy is not the problem, the problem is how to sustain infatuation or the idea that this is necessary.



Werewolf1061C
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18 Jan 2023, 6:59 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
JimJohn wrote:
In regards to romance, supposedly human nature involves a couple meeting and becoming infatuated with each other long enough to get a child out of diapers.

I don’t see how anyone analyzes the situation not based on that.

I disagree. Infatuation ("falling in love") is not the same thing as what I would call sustainable romantic love. Too many people confuse the two, which causes lots of problems.

Sustainable romantic love is, IMO, essentially a very close friendship in conjunction with mutual erotic attraction.

JimJohn wrote:
I can see how some people have a fear of losing themselves in that and override their programming to prevent that.

Infatuation is indeed dangerous in lots of ways. First, it is rarely mutual. Usually it's just one person infatuated with the other, which is a recipe for heartbreak. Second, even if you're lucky enough for your infatuation to be mutual, it's likely to be temporary, and, while it lasts, it impels people to overlook incompatibilities that may end up being deal-breakers in the long run.

Luckily I was raised to regard infatuation as a useless trap.

Infatuation is not the same thing as emotional intimacy and is not a prerequisite to romantic love. Sustainable romantic love is not like a chasm one "falls" into. Rather, like friendship, it is more like a tree that grows when sufficiently nurtured.


An interesting analogy. Maybe I should look at love as more of a friendship and less of a chemical reaction.



Werewolf1061C
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18 Jan 2023, 7:03 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Honestly, I feel if “sustainable practical” love could be combined with lust/infatuation, it would be an ideal situation.

I’m not a fan of the “seven-year itch.”

I absolutely abhor the “business-like” sorts of marriages.

By "sustainable romantic love," I don't mean something that's just "practical" and "businesslike," either. I defined it above as a close friendship in conjunction with mutual erotic attraction. While a close friendship can have its "practical" and "businesslike" aspects, it needs to be much more than that.

Infatuation is something else. Infatuation is an overwhelming emotional obsession with another person, usually a person whom one doesn't even know anywhere near well enough to know whether they are even remotely compatible.

EDIT: In the past, when people I barely knew have "fallen in love" with me, my reaction was usually something like, "How can you love me when you don't even know me?" I felt that they didn't actually love me, but that what they loved was only an image of me that they held in their heads.


Yes, I do not believe in love at first sight, I think love is something that develops over time. Infatuation can turn into love but not right away.



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19 Jan 2023, 5:38 pm

Werewolf1061C wrote:
I also struggle to set boundaries in friendships and relationships.

I've put together a list of tutorials on assertiveness (without being aggressive), which perhaps you might find helpful.


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19 Jan 2023, 9:57 pm

Werewolf1061C wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
JimJohn wrote:
In regards to romance, supposedly human nature involves a couple meeting and becoming infatuated with each other long enough to get a child out of diapers.

I don’t see how anyone analyzes the situation not based on that.

I disagree. Infatuation ("falling in love") is not the same thing as what I would call sustainable romantic love. Too many people confuse the two, which causes lots of problems.

Sustainable romantic love is, IMO, essentially a very close friendship in conjunction with mutual erotic attraction.

JimJohn wrote:
I can see how some people have a fear of losing themselves in that and override their programming to prevent that.

Infatuation is indeed dangerous in lots of ways. First, it is rarely mutual. Usually it's just one person infatuated with the other, which is a recipe for heartbreak. Second, even if you're lucky enough for your infatuation to be mutual, it's likely to be temporary, and, while it lasts, it impels people to overlook incompatibilities that may end up being deal-breakers in the long run.

Luckily I was raised to regard infatuation as a useless trap.

Infatuation is not the same thing as emotional intimacy and is not a prerequisite to romantic love. Sustainable romantic love is not like a chasm one "falls" into. Rather, like friendship, it is more like a tree that grows when sufficiently nurtured.


An interesting analogy. Maybe I should look at love as more of a friendship and less of a chemical reaction.


Love and a romantic relationship is the evolution of a friendship between a man and woman, man and man or woman and woman

ALL romantic relationships start out with the foundation of friendships first then eventually evolve into romance and love

That's how it works


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20 Jan 2023, 1:12 am

Mikurotoro92 wrote:
Love and a romantic relationship is the evolution of a friendship between a man and woman, man and man or woman and woman

ALL romantic relationships start out with the foundation of friendships first then eventually evolve into romance and love

That's how it works

Hmmm, it seems to me that "ALL" is an over-generalization.

It is almost certainly true that most romantic relationships, or at least most good and stable romantic relationships, start out as friendships.

However, some romantic relationships do start in other ways, such as with a mutual crush, rather than starting with a friendship.

But the latter is relatively rare (and risky) and shouldn't be idealized as the only or best way for a romantic relationship to start.


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20 Jan 2023, 7:24 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Mikurotoro92 wrote:
Love and a romantic relationship is the evolution of a friendship between a man and woman, man and man or woman and woman

ALL romantic relationships start out with the foundation of friendships first then eventually evolve into romance and love

That's how it works

Hmmm, it seems to me that "ALL" is an over-generalization.

It is almost certainly true that most romantic relationships, or at least most good and stable romantic relationships, start out as friendships.

However, some romantic relationships do start in other ways, such as with a mutual crush, rather than starting with a friendship.

But the latter is relatively rare (and risky) and shouldn't be idealized as the only or best way for a romantic relationship to start.

In my experience this has never happened. All my romantic relationships began because I and the other person were looking for a relationship or at least a sex partner. The one situation in which I was approached in friendship by a girl who had gone to school with my first girlfriend, and ended up having sex with her a few times, no relationship developed.

Maybe this scenario is more likely later in life i.e. the OP's stage of life (not knowing their age).


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20 Jan 2023, 2:18 pm

Mikurotoro92 wrote:
Werewolf1061C wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
JimJohn wrote:
In regards to romance, supposedly human nature involves a couple meeting and becoming infatuated with each other long enough to get a child out of diapers.

I don’t see how anyone analyzes the situation not based on that.

I disagree. Infatuation ("falling in love") is not the same thing as what I would call sustainable romantic love. Too many people confuse the two, which causes lots of problems.

Sustainable romantic love is, IMO, essentially a very close friendship in conjunction with mutual erotic attraction.

JimJohn wrote:
I can see how some people have a fear of losing themselves in that and override their programming to prevent that.

Infatuation is indeed dangerous in lots of ways. First, it is rarely mutual. Usually it's just one person infatuated with the other, which is a recipe for heartbreak. Second, even if you're lucky enough for your infatuation to be mutual, it's likely to be temporary, and, while it lasts, it impels people to overlook incompatibilities that may end up being deal-breakers in the long run.

Luckily I was raised to regard infatuation as a useless trap.

Infatuation is not the same thing as emotional intimacy and is not a prerequisite to romantic love. Sustainable romantic love is not like a chasm one "falls" into. Rather, like friendship, it is more like a tree that grows when sufficiently nurtured.


An interesting analogy. Maybe I should look at love as more of a friendship and less of a chemical reaction.


Love and a romantic relationship is the evolution of a friendship between a man and woman, man and man or woman and woman

ALL romantic relationships start out with the foundation of friendships first then eventually evolve into romance and love

That's how it works


When that transpires I would see it as disgusting and asexual if I were connected to it. I would not indulge in any of that. I would rather have someone hate me. Thinking like that is asking for hate and abuse. I would never abuse anyone but I would also never participate in a relationship like that. I imagine that is just a strange truth.



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20 Jan 2023, 4:47 pm

MaxE wrote:
In my experience this has never happened. All my romantic relationships began because I and the other person were looking for a relationship or at least a sex partner.

How long did these relationships typically last? How long did the longest one last?

Also, did you meet as total strangers, e.g. via a dating app, or were you both part of some common social circle (even if you weren't already close friends within that circle), e.g. attending the same school?


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20 Jan 2023, 4:59 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
MaxE wrote:
In my experience this has never happened. All my romantic relationships began because I and the other person were looking for a relationship or at least a sex partner.

How long did these relationships typically last? How long did the longest one last?

Also, did you meet as total strangers, e.g. via a dating app, or were you both part of some common social circle (even if you weren't already close friends within that circle), e.g. attending the same school?


Well the longest was with my wife whom I met over 38 years ago and to whom I am still married. I would be happy to list all of them and how they began however some people might consider that oversharing. I could also PM you that information. Not certain how much of this would interest the average WP member.


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20 Jan 2023, 9:04 pm

MaxE wrote:
Well the longest was with my wife whom I met over 38 years ago and to whom I am still married. I would be happy to list all of them and how they began however some people might consider that oversharing. I could also PM you that information. Not certain how much of this would interest the average WP member.

I am most interested in the following question I asked earlier, regarding your wife in particular:

Mona Pereth wrote:
Also, did you meet as total strangers, e.g. via a dating app, or were you both part of some common social circle (even if you weren't already close friends within that circle), e.g. attending the same school?

I think a lot of people here would be very interested to hear how your various relationships (both short and long) began, but if you personally prefer not to discuss this for privacy reasons, that's certainly your right.


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21 Jan 2023, 2:23 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
MaxE wrote:
Well the longest was with my wife whom I met over 38 years ago and to whom I am still married. I would be happy to list all of them and how they began however some people might consider that oversharing. I could also PM you that information. Not certain how much of this would interest the average WP member.

I am most interested in the following question I asked earlier, regarding your wife in particular:

Mona Pereth wrote:
Also, did you meet as total strangers, e.g. via a dating app, or were you both part of some common social circle (even if you weren't already close friends within that circle), e.g. attending the same school?

I think a lot of people here would be very interested to hear how your various relationships (both short and long) began, but if you personally prefer not to discuss this for privacy reasons, that's certainly your right.


My reticence is not out of concern for privacy but rather a wish to not parade my love life in front of this community, many members of which have a rather complicated relationship with the whole concept. However, as nobody has outright asked before, and also as I have nobody else with whom to discuss such things, here goes. I have thought about how to make this as brief as possible and still get the general idea across. I will not discuss how these relationships ended, for the sake of brevity.

1.) Knew a guy in college who was in a hot and heavy relationship with a townie. One weekend, a girl came to visit him, being aware of his relationship I assumed this girl to be unattached and so started chatting her up. It turns out she had been his gf since HS and had just learned he was now with somebody else. I somehow managed to obtain her phone number, called her, and arranged to meet up with her twice. At the end of the 2nd meetup, she kissed me. Well it turned out she was soon leaving the country (for Europe) for Spring semester (this may have been January I don't really remember) and we agreed to correspond. For the next several months we corresponded i.e. wrote letters and at some point she decided we were officially a couple. It was agreed I would meet her in Europe after the semester was over and we travelled together, sharing a bed from the beginning although we waited until she had her period and it ended before attempting intercourse (it was the first time for either of us)
2.) I had made the acquaintance of some of my previous gf's classmates from visiting her at college. Some time after that relationship was over, one of them reached out to me and I ended up visiting her on a couple of different weekends and we had sex. We were each the other's 2nd partner. No relationship developed from this.
3.) I joined Mensa and went to my first meeting. After standing there a short time, a woman (she was 28 I was 22 at the time) walked up to me, announced that she had schizophrenia (although she call it "dementia praecox"), continued to chat with me for a while, and eventually asked me if I wanted to go with her to her apartment. After talking with her at her apartment for a while, she asked me if I wanted to have sex with her. I continued to date her for 3-4 months.
4.) I joined a Summer academic program in Germany (I was 23 at that time) and could identify only one clear "prospect" who had just graduated from the (fairly prestigious) Catholic university that ran the program. I proceeded to chat her up, mostly because she was the only seemingly available female in the program rather than because I found her all that attractive. After 2-3 occasions of my hanging around her, she abruptly turned to me and announced that if I bought a condom we could go back to her room and have sex. I was in a relationship with her for most of the next year with one breakup.
5.) A male school mate (I was back in school after a hiatus) who would probably be considered non-binary today, had taken an apartment with a young woman just shy of her 21st birthday (they were not a couple). Out of curiosity, I went to the apartment. She was there and he wasn't. She took a shine to me immediately. I went back 3-4 times and basically hung out with her. Finally I tried to make out with her and her response was to start rubbing my crotch. This became the longest relationship I had before meeting my wife, we were officially a couple over 2 years (NOTE I was still in relationship 4.) when this happened).
6.) I took a self-improvement evening course and there was one woman there who seemed sort of approachable so I basically asked her out. We went to a restaurant and both got drunk (not falling down drunk but basically drunk). We went to her apartment, started making out, then ended up in bed.
7.) I moved into a garden apartment and one of my neighbors started hitting on me (a divorced woman a couple years older btw I was about 30 at the time). Dated her for a few months.
8.) At my job (I believe this happened before 7.) I had been hitting on a coworker who was a couple years older, it turns out this young woman who'd just graduated had seen me around the office and was temporarily living with her. She was attracted to me and told her roommate she wanted a date with me. So this was arranged and I went on a couple other dates with her in which we engaged in high-school-like PDA (she was 6.5 years younger than I and I believe quite inexperienced) but never had actual sex or became an official couple. She then dated a coworker her own age for about a year. Later after that ended she called me and basically said she wanted to pick things back up. We ended up officially dating for about 6 months.
0.) Around this time I became in involved with a Single's group that basically organized mixers, this relates to the last 2 items.
9.) Met a woman about my age at one of the above mixers who had apparently been dragged there by a friend (oddly she didn't seem to have many friends not sure who that was) — she should probably not have been there as her husband had just left her. I asked her out, on the 2nd date (I believe) I performed non-consensual oral sex on her for which she thanked me. After that, we were dating, this went on maybe 4 months.
10.) Met my wife at another such mixer the same year (she was 4.5 years younger than I and had apparently not dated anyone since college). On the first date I took her to an art museum and we ate at the museum café. On the 2nd date, I took her somewhere (probably a restaurant) and kissed her good-night at her door. On the third date, we spent some time in her apartment cuddling and watching TB. On the fourth date, she came to my apartment and we had sex. Two months later we were engaged.

EDIT I am quite certain some of these scenarios could not have played out in today's world.


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10 Mar 2023, 5:46 pm

Werewolf1061C wrote:
I am not a shy person and I easily make friends and flirt with other people. I am not a virgin by any stretch of the imagination, and I am capable of forming deep friendships which last for years or even decades. However, I have never had a serious romantic relationship. I tend to either fall in love with people who are unavailable or push away people who fall in love with me. I do not know why this is, but I suspect that it may have something to do with my deeply ingrained masking behavior. I got a score of 130 on the CAT-Q, which explains why people usually label me as generally "weird" instead of specifically "autistic". Does anyone else have a similar experience? If so, can you shed some light on why it is so difficult to experience genuine intimacy? And is there a way to stop being afraid of this?


i assume you are still in your 20s



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18 Mar 2023, 2:47 pm

Replying to some snippets from a complex nested quote here:

Mikurotoro92 wrote:
Love and a romantic relationship is the evolution of a friendship between a man and woman, man and man or woman and woman

ALL romantic relationships start out with the foundation of friendships first then eventually evolve into romance and love

That's how it works

I wouldn't say that's how it always works, but that's how my current and longest-lasting relationship began, and it's what I've always regarded as the best way for a romantic relationship to start.

Some other people apparently have a very different opinion, however:

JimJohn wrote:
When that transpires I would see it as disgusting and asexual if I were connected to it. I would not indulge in any of that. I would rather have someone hate me. Thinking like that is asking for hate and abuse. I would never abuse anyone but I would also never participate in a relationship like that. I imagine that is just a strange truth.

Can you explain why you feel that "Thinking like that is asking for hate and abuse"?


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18 Mar 2023, 3:01 pm

MaxE wrote:
10.) Met my wife at another such mixer the same year (she was 4.5 years younger than I and had apparently not dated anyone since college). On the first date I took her to an art museum and we ate at the museum café. On the 2nd date, I took her somewhere (probably a restaurant) and kissed her good-night at her door. On the third date, we spent some time in her apartment cuddling and watching TB. On the fourth date, she came to my apartment and we had sex. Two months later we were engaged.

When you first met at the singles mixer, did you have any common friends or at least common acquaintances (perhaps among regulars in the singles group)? Or were you total strangers to each other?

Also was the singles group advertised to the general public, or were members recruited as friends of friends of the host, or recruited from some specific pre-existing social milieu?


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18 Mar 2023, 4:20 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
MaxE wrote:
10.) Met my wife at another such mixer the same year (she was 4.5 years younger than I and had apparently not dated anyone since college). On the first date I took her to an art museum and we ate at the museum café. On the 2nd date, I took her somewhere (probably a restaurant) and kissed her good-night at her door. On the third date, we spent some time in her apartment cuddling and watching TB. On the fourth date, she came to my apartment and we had sex. Two months later we were engaged.

When you first met at the singles mixer, did you have any common friends or at least common acquaintances (perhaps among regulars in the singles group)? Or were you total strangers to each other?

Also was the singles group advertised to the general public, or were members recruited as friends of friends of the host, or recruited from some specific pre-existing social milieu?

We were total strangers to each other. Best I can claim is that her parents and my parents had mutual acquaintances, as her mother was a day student at the school at which my parents met as night students, and my parents had been involved in the alumni association. The mixer was advertised to the general public. After we became a couple, she participated in organizing subsequent mixers along with me.

I have another story concerning that group though, it might make you question that I'm on the spectrum but you may find it interesting. So there was a woman member of the group, she was perhaps a year or two older than I and conventionally attractive. That might have been her problem i.e. she may have experienced being hit on by a lot of "players" but wasn't attracted to that sort of guy. Anyway I guess she asked me out, I don't much recall the details but we were in her apartment and for some reason I guess she'd been forthcoming in that she was interested in me. So I pointed out to her how for cultural reasons, I didn't think we'd work out as a couple. What cultural reasons? Well she was from Eastern Tennessee in fact a stone's throw from where Dolly Parton grew up, and I said to her, if you had a boyfriend and your car broke down, you'd expect him to come by and fix it, right? And she admitted yes, that was indeed the case. Seems sort of stereotyped but in that situation I think it best to get down to basics. This pretty much settled the issue and we continued to be as friendly as before. She wasn't looking for something casual and probably expected to have more opportunities going forward. It really wasn't until that stage of my life (comfortably past 30) that I actually turned down what seemed like opportunities (I guess if she was that interested I could have gotten her into bed) so it doesn't surprise me that I found the "right person" not long after.

Not that any serious relationship is perfect but that's another discussion. The expectation that relationships should be perfect is probably breaking up a lot of families, in the old days they knew better lol.


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