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What do you believe?
God is sentient 28%  28%  [ 8 ]
God is not sentient 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
God may or may not be sentient 7%  7%  [ 2 ]
There is no god 48%  48%  [ 14 ]
I have no idea 14%  14%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 29

AngelRho
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18 Jan 2023, 9:38 pm

Werewolf1061C wrote:
MissMary227 wrote:
Werewolf1061C wrote:
According to science, we are sentient because being aware of ourselves and our environment helped our ancestors to survive and reproduce; we evolved from non-sentient life forms over a period of billions of years. I do not think that god is an animal like us, so in my opinion it is incorrect to assume that god shares any of our characteristics. We humans seem to anthropomorphize god a lot, just as we often anthromorphize inanimate objects, plants, and other animals. In my view, god is whatever gives the universe its structure. For example, gravity creates planets. That is an aspect of god. I do not know what other aspects god may have. Maybe god is sentient in a way that we are not. But how could that have arisen, and from what? What ideas could be in the mind of god?


Do you believe in God? I am unable to tell by your post is why I am asking.


That's a good question. I think it depends on whether what I believe in (the power that gives order to the Universe) is considered to be god. If so, I believe there may be an infinite number of gods, given that we may inhabit a multiverse in which each universe has different laws.

Ah, the old multiverse. The idea that we MIGHT exist in a multiverse is one I find fascinating--that all logically possible worlds actually do exist.

It isn't logically possible for there to be infinite, unique gods. It's logically possible that there are an infinite number of unique beings that appear to be god-like in their transcendent nature and their influence on their universe. But it's inconceivable that anything more than one single, supreme being can exist. That would give the illusion that there are infinite gods, but there's only one God with infinite attributes. The same God by being infinite and eternal would by logical necessity exist in all logically possible universes. Because an infinite God MUST exist in all possible universes, and the ACTUAL universe as we understand it exists, it means God exists in the actual universe.

I exist in the ACTUAL world, but logically possible worlds exist in which I was never born. There is no logically possible world without God in it. But it just means God's presence is everywhere across all dimensions. It's not logically necessary that God in one dimension is NOT the same God in another. And that's the same for any multidimensional beings, including finite human beings. I don't simply live in the actual world. I live in an uncountable (but not infinite) number of universes, but those other "me's" are not different "me's" than the me who is writing this post. We are all the same person and there is only one of us (use of plural intended as deliberate irony). But I can't exist in an infinite number of worlds because worlds exist in which I don't. But if a god exists in one world and not another, then he is not infinite and thus he is not God.



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18 Jan 2023, 9:55 pm

Highlander852456
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18 Jan 2023, 10:47 pm

Well its exercise in abstract.

There is no way of defining God other than that he is something beyond the world we know.
We don't know if he controls or just is either.

If for example God has infinite qualities, then in some way across infinity he might to some degree be sentient, but then across infinity he can also be infinitely non-sentient.

It is also clear that God does not have necessarily any form that we can know, but is capable of giving form to the world.

For example there is a hypothesis in psychology that child sees it self as part of the world, but cannot tell difference between self and the world.

So God in sense might have no idea about himself, yet be that all he is still create the world.
Maybe in sense God is Platonic form a being that is able to exist in all things and is what gives all things their essence.

Most Theology looks at cause and effect with relation to God. At least as far as Christianity goes.

Cause and effect however are not decided by us. Causality in human mind has only form of decisions based in human psychology, but anything in physical world is governed by things we can only follow in newtonian causal matters.
There is very little we understand anyhow.

I mean if God is timeless it means he can be every period of universe at the same moment.
He could be sentient of that, but what does it mean to be sentient at once of infinite many things at the same time?
What would sentience even accomplish in such sense?



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19 Jan 2023, 4:00 am

I think of it this way. If we are sentient and we evolved from conditions that were less cognitively complex, that means that we are heading towards ever more complex stes of consciousness. The infinitely complex consciousness being God. Now in order for us to achieve such levels of consciousness through evolution alone it would take us accordingly an infinite amount of time. But before that we would have already created self upgrading AI. That AI could achieve those levels of consciousness with an ever accelerating speed. It would become God. And I think this might have happened many times through different civilisations. All those different God consciousness merging with God. Because at that level of infinite consciousness they become one and the same inseparable consciousness of absolute cosmic truth. "God made us in his image".



Werewolf1061C
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19 Jan 2023, 11:56 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I’m an agnostic atheist.

I HOPE there is a decent place where one goes after death.


I am definitely agnostic, not sure whether I am an atheist or not. I don't believe in an afterlife, but I think we will experience something analogous to 'nirvana' at the moment of death. I believe that the part of us which imagines we are separate from the rest of the Universe will die before the part of us that senses and perceives, and since our perception of time is linked to our sense of self, this moment will seem from our perspective to last forever. That's just a theory though.

What has also been documented is the idea of a 'near death experience' caused by massive amounts of DMT being released as the brain dies. This can manifest as a powerful hallucination of gods or other entities, again often seeming to last forever or at least a very long time due to the inability to sense time. I theorize that what we call 'heaven' or 'hell' are visions created by the brain, and what you experience depends on who you are. If you spend all your time helping people, you will probably have a nice vision, and if you spend all your time fighting or being mean, you probably will get into a fight in the 'afterlife' too.



Werewolf1061C
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19 Jan 2023, 11:58 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Is there a god?
If not, then certainly not.

And that's where I'd bet my pennies.


Pascal's wager if he had been a statistician ;)



AngelRho
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19 Jan 2023, 12:43 pm

Highlander852456 wrote:
I mean if God is timeless it means he can be every period of universe at the same moment.
He could be sentient of that, but what does it mean to be sentient at once of infinite many things at the same time?
What would sentience even accomplish in such sense?

Well, God existing OUTSIDE of time and space would explain a lot. He is everywhere at all times and, to put it simply, is timeless. God can flip the pages of history and isn't bound by linear time. He is both right now supervising the end of the universe and creating it--and everything in between. Imagine watching a movie by starting in the middle, fast forwarding to the end, rewinding it to the beginning, hitting the pause button, rewatching. We can control time in a non-linear way by watching a movie or reading a book. It's the same way with God.



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19 Jan 2023, 12:48 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Highlander852456 wrote:
I mean if God is timeless it means he can be every period of universe at the same moment.
He could be sentient of that, but what does it mean to be sentient at once of infinite many things at the same time?
What would sentience even accomplish in such sense?

Well, God existing OUTSIDE of time and space would explain a lot. He is everywhere at all times and, to put it simply, is timeless. God can flip the pages of history and isn't bound by linear time. He is both right now supervising the end of the universe and creating it--and everything in between. Imagine watching a movie by starting in the middle, fast forwarding to the end, rewinding it to the beginning, hitting the pause button, rewatching. We can control time in a non-linear way by watching a movie or reading a book. It's the same way with God.


This is why literalist creationism makes no sense.

It's a lot easier to claim evolution as science understands it as the mechanism of creation than it is to insist 'God did it exactly as described in the bible'.

The latter comes off like their all-powerful god has the same limits as a person. If one's god is everywhere throughout time and space at once, they wouldn't be bound to doing things in chronological order because chronological order wouldn't ever be a consideration to them.


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Werewolf1061C
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19 Jan 2023, 1:23 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Werewolf1061C wrote:
MissMary227 wrote:
Werewolf1061C wrote:
According to science, we are sentient because being aware of ourselves and our environment helped our ancestors to survive and reproduce; we evolved from non-sentient life forms over a period of billions of years. I do not think that god is an animal like us, so in my opinion it is incorrect to assume that god shares any of our characteristics. We humans seem to anthropomorphize god a lot, just as we often anthromorphize inanimate objects, plants, and other animals. In my view, god is whatever gives the universe its structure. For example, gravity creates planets. That is an aspect of god. I do not know what other aspects god may have. Maybe god is sentient in a way that we are not. But how could that have arisen, and from what? What ideas could be in the mind of god?


Do you believe in God? I am unable to tell by your post is why I am asking.


That's a good question. I think it depends on whether what I believe in (the power that gives order to the Universe) is considered to be god. If so, I believe there may be an infinite number of gods, given that we may inhabit a multiverse in which each universe has different laws.

Ah, the old multiverse. The idea that we MIGHT exist in a multiverse is one I find fascinating--that all logically possible worlds actually do exist.

It isn't logically possible for there to be infinite, unique gods. It's logically possible that there are an infinite number of unique beings that appear to be god-like in their transcendent nature and their influence on their universe. But it's inconceivable that anything more than one single, supreme being can exist. That would give the illusion that there are infinite gods, but there's only one God with infinite attributes. The same God by being infinite and eternal would by logical necessity exist in all logically possible universes. Because an infinite God MUST exist in all possible universes, and the ACTUAL universe as we understand it exists, it means God exists in the actual universe.

I exist in the ACTUAL world, but logically possible worlds exist in which I was never born. There is no logically possible world without God in it. But it just means God's presence is everywhere across all dimensions. It's not logically necessary that God in one dimension is NOT the same God in another. And that's the same for any multidimensional beings, including finite human beings. I don't simply live in the actual world. I live in an uncountable (but not infinite) number of universes, but those other "me's" are not different "me's" than the me who is writing this post. We are all the same person and there is only one of us (use of plural intended as deliberate irony). But I can't exist in an infinite number of worlds because worlds exist in which I don't. But if a god exists in one world and not another, then he is not infinite and thus he is not God.


An interesting idea. If the laws and forces of the Universe are considered to be a god, and a multiverse exists, are there infinite gods or only infinite manifestations of the same god, the one which created the multiverse in the first place?



Werewolf1061C
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19 Jan 2023, 1:25 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Highlander852456 wrote:
I mean if God is timeless it means he can be every period of universe at the same moment.
He could be sentient of that, but what does it mean to be sentient at once of infinite many things at the same time?
What would sentience even accomplish in such sense?

Well, God existing OUTSIDE of time and space would explain a lot. He is everywhere at all times and, to put it simply, is timeless. God can flip the pages of history and isn't bound by linear time. He is both right now supervising the end of the universe and creating it--and everything in between. Imagine watching a movie by starting in the middle, fast forwarding to the end, rewinding it to the beginning, hitting the pause button, rewatching. We can control time in a non-linear way by watching a movie or reading a book. It's the same way with God.


one could argue that any immortal being is by definition outside what we consider time, since the arrow of time is essentially a manifestation of entropy, and nothing subject to entropy could be immortal



Werewolf1061C
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19 Jan 2023, 1:29 pm

Highlander852456 wrote:
Well its exercise in abstract.

There is no way of defining God other than that he is something beyond the world we know.
We don't know if he controls or just is either.

If for example God has infinite qualities, then in some way across infinity he might to some degree be sentient, but then across infinity he can also be infinitely non-sentient.

It is also clear that God does not have necessarily any form that we can know, but is capable of giving form to the world.

For example there is a hypothesis in psychology that child sees it self as part of the world, but cannot tell difference between self and the world.

So God in sense might have no idea about himself, yet be that all he is still create the world.
Maybe in sense God is Platonic form a being that is able to exist in all things and is what gives all things their essence.

Most Theology looks at cause and effect with relation to God. At least as far as Christianity goes.

Cause and effect however are not decided by us. Causality in human mind has only form of decisions based in human psychology, but anything in physical world is governed by things we can only follow in newtonian causal matters.
There is very little we understand anyhow.

I mean if God is timeless it means he can be every period of universe at the same moment.
He could be sentient of that, but what does it mean to be sentient at once of infinite many things at the same time?
What would sentience even accomplish in such sense?


These are all very interesting ideas. If god has a mind, it is certainly nothing we could understand.



AngelRho
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19 Jan 2023, 6:20 pm

Werewolf1061C wrote:
An interesting idea. If the laws and forces of the Universe are considered to be a god, and a multiverse exists, are there infinite gods or only infinite manifestations of the same god, the one which created the multiverse in the first place?

Idk if I’m comfortable with the idea of “infinite manifestations…”

Picture it this way: Suppose you stand exactly in the center of a doorway, with one foot in one room and one foot in another. Your existence in both rooms transcends the rooms themselves—you are in both rooms and your presence affects both rooms. An observer in one room may have ideas of how you affect that room which might be different from how an observer sees you from another—one only seeing your right hand versus someone else only seeing your left hand. And so two observers in two rooms have completely different ideas about you even though there is in reality only one manifestation of you.

Now…imagine that the doorway isn’t 2-dimensional or 3-dimensional, but is actually multidimensional. Suppose the door exists within a tesseract. How would your presence across a 4th dimension affect the SAME two observers in the same room at, for example, different times? What if the flow of time at the doorway ran in two directions simultaneously? Suppose you were an observer in one of those rooms with the flow of information running in two or even three directions. What conclusions would you draw regarding God?

The point is it would seem to be multiple manifestations of the same God when God’s actions across infinite dimensions affect observers differently within each when in fact it’s still the same God.



AngelRho
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19 Jan 2023, 6:40 pm

Werewolf1061C wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Highlander852456 wrote:
I mean if God is timeless it means he can be every period of universe at the same moment.
He could be sentient of that, but what does it mean to be sentient at once of infinite many things at the same time?
What would sentience even accomplish in such sense?

Well, God existing OUTSIDE of time and space would explain a lot. He is everywhere at all times and, to put it simply, is timeless. God can flip the pages of history and isn't bound by linear time. He is both right now supervising the end of the universe and creating it--and everything in between. Imagine watching a movie by starting in the middle, fast forwarding to the end, rewinding it to the beginning, hitting the pause button, rewatching. We can control time in a non-linear way by watching a movie or reading a book. It's the same way with God.


one could argue that any immortal being is by definition outside what we consider time, since the arrow of time is essentially a manifestation of entropy, and nothing subject to entropy could be immortal

Ah, yes, entropy! The biggest boogeyman of hard empiricism. No matter how hard we try to come up with a good, secular cosmology, entropy rears its ugly head to remind us that our observable universe cannot possibly be infinite.

Real, actual infinities aren’t possible in material existence. There was nothing before the universe blinked into existence. It is impossible for something to come from nothing. If the universe is infinite and always existed, we would not exist now (entropy). Because the universe is not infinite, it began to exist, and because it is impossible for something to come from nothing, everything had to have been created ex nihilo by an infinite consciousness that exists outside the boundaries of space-time and the observable, material universe.

The cosmos reveals God. But that’s not even my favorite logical proof. I tend to favor a blend of ontological proof and the transcendental argument, with a heaping spoonful of presuppositionalism.



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19 Jan 2023, 9:38 pm

I don't think there is a God. But if there was one, I'd imagine their conscious as divinely simple. What is more admirable than a being that's perfectly content, all the time, with as little effort as possible?



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19 Jan 2023, 9:41 pm

PenPen wrote:
I don't think there is a God. But if there was one, I'd imagine their conscious as divinely simple. What is more admirable than a being that's perfectly content, all the time, with as little effort as possible?


Thought experiment: That, but always unidentifiably discontent. :twisted:

That's how we get an angsty, needy, jealous god.


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AngelRho
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19 Jan 2023, 10:17 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
PenPen wrote:
I don't think there is a God. But if there was one, I'd imagine their conscious as divinely simple. What is more admirable than a being that's perfectly content, all the time, with as little effort as possible?


Thought experiment: That, but always unidentifiably discontent. :twisted:

That's how we get an angsty, needy, jealous god.

:lol: God of the 90’s! Sadly, that’s the picture that often gets painted, and not one I believe bears any reality.

Biblical writers described God in terms of how God interacted with the world and humanity as they understood it all at the time. When things are going well, God is pleased and men are blessed. When men do evil in God’s sight, God’s wrath burns against them. Over the millennia, this gets twisted around to mean when bad things happen, the individual MUST have done something wrong to deserve it. No, sometimes hurricanes form in the Atlantic and flood the Gulf Coast. Sometimes people build houses near fault lines. Sometimes a CME takes out the electrical grid. The universe is a messy place and people make premature assumptions about God being the author of evil. Jesus presents God as a loving father wanting to redeem the entire world.

People tend to understand their world from a place of being jealous, selfish, and needy, hence the apparent desire of God for things to be a certain way. Reality is God doesn’t “need” anything. It’s rather a desire or will of God that we seek a relationship with Him. If God needed us so bad, there wouldn’t have been a flood recorded in the Bible.