How Can Decent People Behave Callously?

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I think it's through ignorance with me. I impulsively post something political here without getting my facts right first, and not really meaning it with malicious intent ("oh I want to say this because I enjoy hurting people"). Maybe I just need to be educated rather than listen to the views of family and friends.

You can't change people's views. There are some people I know who still believe the covid vaccines are poisonous and they're getting this idea through Tiktok videos! Tiktok is the last place to get evidence about anything, but some people will still believe it and stubbornly not get vaccinated. I can't change their views, even when they lecture me for being vaccinated. Too late, I'm already vaccinated, can't change back time, and people don't have to respect me for being vaccinated but they ought to educate themselves further on the matter rather than listening to Tiktok nonsense.

That's probably fair, lots of people make those sorts of errors. They usually will try to learn from them, but if too many people are telling them there's no need for it (personally, or just through social norms) they might shift the blame. It's the difference between telling your little kid not to hit people after they punch someone at soccer and buying them ice cream after beating someone up at hockey because hockey fights are normal and you socked 'im good son

Extending the parenting metaphor, I think there's a value in the 'talking to them' approach vs. the 'beating them until there's handprints' approach. That said, I also understand how hurtful behaviour that doesn't modify can frustrate a person until they're after a fight and little else.

The problem with people once they're in that state, they're much more interested in the dopamine fixes they get from the fight and sometimes they lose sight of if the actual goal is still being advanced or not.

Personally in my experience in autistic communities, it's a little messier than that because autistic people are just as prone to developing complexes and might be even more prone to deeply embracing ideologies, both of which can serve to compartmentalize their empathy in some contexts.

A lot of autistics were bullied and a portion have internalized those social rules as the norm, which can make it easy to operate like cruelty is an expectation (for example).

As I said in another thread, autistic people are basically taught to follow the social rules very logically, and in most contexts social rules are not logical and are best learnt from mimicking good role models, not from being lectured precise rules where 2+2 always equals 4.

I've often been told by NTs that it doesn't hurt to be a little selfish sometimes, to do what works for me, to not constantly be a people-pleaser, to assert myself, etc etc. I have learnt that people don't need their hands held and you don't need to tiptoe around people all the time. Sometimes being nice doesn't always earn you respect. It can cause you grief, because you are bending over backwards to please everyone, and some people don't appreciate it and see you as a soft target, and that builds up resentment, and then you reach your limit one day, snap, and then you're perceived as bad or disrespectful or mental and then even less people like you.

It's a selfish society we live in, and as the old saying goes, if you can't beat them, join them.

I feel like there's a stereotype of someone coded for autism (but not identified as having it) ending up the patsy.

But, if they were involved, they might still fairly deserve criminal guilt alongside the unfair additional portion they'll receive.

Since it's not a crime, just a social transgression hearing out negative feedback can help with making people who've been upset feel they've addressed their concerns.

But most important is the doing better going forward. If the wound keeps being re-inflicted it can't ever heal.

Tangent, but that seems to be important for societies recovering from traumatic conflicts as well. If the antagonism isn't resolved the conflict just starts up again. When one party is the antagonized, it's unlikely they'll unilaterally back so it's on the one who antagonized to do so because that's the only way they can demonstrate good faith.

If someone's stepped on my foot and apologized three times, I don't care if they apologize the fourth time. I just want my foot to stop getting squished.

The best thing to do is not to “step on the foot a fourth time.”

I’ve noticed, when I do something wrong, that overt apologizing sometimes does not work. I have found it’s sometimes best to “apologize with actions,” rather than “apologizing with words.”

And to “just give it time.”

!	Cornflake wrote:
	Further references of any kind to WP members will result in this thread being locked. There are already several instances where a lock would have been appropriate but I'm going to trust the contributors here that there will be no recurrence and a reasonable discussion will follow.

---

"How Can Decent People Behave Callously?"

This Question Has Literally "Plagued" me From
Small Childhood, Sitting in the Back of A 'Protestant

Church,' Listening to A Raging Dude, Who Sounded Like

He Was Mad at Being Born; Yelling at the Congregation That

For All of Those Who Do Not Believe in An All Merciful,

Loving, Forgiving The Enemy, Turning the Other

Cheek God-man; 'They' Shall Burn in

Hell-Fire Forever and Ever

With No Escape; God Yes,

Truly Making "Hannibal The Cannibal"
in "Silence of the Lambs," Look Like A Relative 'Saint;'

Of Course That Was Back in the 60's, in my Childhood,
Well Before 'Hannibal the Cannibal' Came to Life in A Story on

The Big Screen Then in "Silence of the Lambs;" Apt Metaphor Though,

For the Condition of the Human Condition Still At Hand; People Bond and

Bind over Stories, Dark and Light, And All the Symbols Those Stories Bring to Life For Them.

People Bond and Bind Over Common Stories Dark and Light to Stick Together For Survival;

And Even Thriving With the Warm Human Social Bonding Neurohormone Oxytocin That Heals

Anxiety and Pain For Real That The Sugar Pills of Stories Actually Bring to Life Organically and Real

Within to Give,
Share, Care,
And Heal For Real;

So Even Though That Idea

Sounds Totally 'Nuts' to Someone
like me With a Very Systemizing Mind

For the Logic (Logos) of Love, All Merciful And Forgiving

Could Not Possibly Harm Any Part of Existence Forever to be True;

It's Like Duh;

That's Got to be

The Biggest Lie Ever

iMaGiNeD By Humankind;

Yet Paradoxically, A Sugar Pill

That is Also Voodoo in Nocebo Effect;

As People Come to Cherish the After Life More

Than the Before Death and After Birth, With A Carrot Promise

of Paradise in A Dirt Nap After or Before The Dirt Nap Lie of Hell;

It's Like Female Genital Mutilation;

Dear Lord, The Potential Nightmares
of Human Callous Behaviors Coming to DarK iN LiGHT

As Even Many Women Who Endure the Procedure of Losing
Their Pleasure Organ Driving Them to Reproduce at Core of What

Surviving Even Means, Proclaiming Great Self-Esteem in Group Bonding and
Binding of Warmth in Oxytocin Ways, Even Though Ecstasy of Creating Life

May Be Cut Away... Yes Folks,

This is the Human Condition, YucK;

That Includes 'Religion,' With or Without
A So-Called God; All the Stories And Symbols
That Bond and Bind Humans Together to Get the

Jobs of Surviving Done With or Without the Ecstasy of Pleasure;

And Additionally, in Environments of Scarcity For Resources, This Includes

Tribal Conflicts Both Inside and Outside of Smaller and Larger Groups of Humans,
Binding and Bonding in Traditional Ways to Stick Together, No Matter DarK or LiGHT

Ways of Behavior Together That May Benefit Some And Harm Others Up to Death And

Killing in Wars; Along The Path of Raping And Pillaging to Gather Up Resources For Subsistence

And Reproduction As Well to Enhance the All Hands Effort to Survive at Base 'Snake Brain' Level of Existence.

It's Why in the Rainforest, We See Cooperative Groups And Groups of Cannibals too; It's a Matter of 'Religion'

And Environments of Abundance or Scarcity; Human Beings Have the Potential With Culture And What Bonds And
Binds for Religion to Create Great Dreams and Callous Nightmares of Culture That Benefits Some And Harms Others

'Greatly'
As 'Well' too;

The Group Think
Determines the Path Ahead;

It Took me a Long While to Figure Out
Why The Onward Christian Marching Soldier
Boys Spit on me For Being Joyful as A Child With SMiles;

i Didn't Have A 'Big Daddy,' Taking Away my Empathy And Compassion for Others, Different;

So, one Day i Might Be A 'Big Man' And Fight to the Death in Unwarranted Wars Like Vietnam too;'

Or On the Other Hand, Wars for Survival And Freedom too For Real; Rare They Are 'These Days' Yet
Human Potential they still are.

Sadly, in A Era of Greater
LoVE iN Peace; Wars Have
Been Manufactured along the
Way For Material Profits and Power;

And in Doing So, The Religion Remained

of A Tribal God Readying Those To Kill Members
of Their Same Species to Take What They Have to Survive.

We Don't LiVE iN A Desert Anymore; Yet Even in Relative Paradise,

Some Folks Seem to Still Believe they Do; And The Real Conundrum
Is Abundance Can Harm the Mental Health of a Real Organic Starving Soul

As Much As
Yes Material
Scarcity as Well;

Pull the Lever 'Monkey'

One More Time; Yet it's Worth

Noting That Rats Who Have Established
A Variety of Ways For Struggling For Dopamine in

Reinforcement 'in the Wild Naked Enough Whole Complete'
Don't Get Addicted to 'Cocaine of
Life' Delivered ThiS Way; Yes,

All Domesticated AS Such

In Instant Gratification;

Fortunately, i Was Outcast

And Found My Own Ways

to Master The Within of me;

Eventually Finding 'The Call of the Wild Again;'

Yes, To Still Be Kind to Others Along the Way;

As Wild Wolves Typically Do More Than One's
Domesticated More By Penned in Sheep Lunch;

When You Generate Your own Happiness, there
is Not Much Anyone, in a Peaceful Society at Least,

May Add To or
Subtract From You;

And This is Key; God Yes,

People Who Are Empty Within,

Will Do Just About Anything to Feel and
Fill That FroZen Place Within; And Yes That

Includes the Neurochemicals and Neurohormones of
Misery Loves Company With The Emotions of Fear,
Anger, And Hate Bring as Science Shows People

Will Become
Yuck, Addicted

to Fear, Anger,
And Hate, If They Are
Far Away From Experiencing
Pro-Social Emotions That Come

From Warm Cooperative Relationships

That Lift Each Other Up, Instead of Tear Each Other Down;

There Are Many Reasons, Otherwise Decent People Behave

Callously; And A Biggest 'Reason' As Science Shows Now in Terms
of Neuroscience is that Humans Basically Hallucinate Their Realities

As they Go, Based on Experiences They Basically Hallucinate Creating the

Stories of Their Realities Before; And Most Every So-Called Rational Decision
in Word Think, Is Preceded

First By A Synergy
of Feelings and Yes

Senses That Make
Up Our Emotions

That Direct Most All We Do
in Life First, Before We Make

Up Reasons For What We Come to Do Next;

At Best Learning From the Past And Not Repeating

The Same Old Stories That Lead to Misery Loves Company of Discontent...

Yet It Really Doesn't 'Matter,' Until You Find A Way to Regulate Your Emotions
And Senses First; As Again, Happy Body Makes Happy Mind From Head to Toe Real in Balance.

In Other Words,

That Aren't Words;

Don't Discount The Dances
That Brings the Songs of Life For Real....

A Free Dance in All the Ways Humans Move
Come To Regulate Emotions and Integrate Senses;

Yes, It'S How Little Children Move With 'Happy Feet,' With No Instructions at All, So Originally;

And Non-Sense Babbling Songs Coming Free That Only Express A Joy of This Breath Newly Now;

It's So Ironic, When Folks Ask, "Why Would You Do Such A Thing For No Reason;"

Well, BE Cause

It is the Emotions
First in Regulating
Them New Now Along with
Senses That Generate Most All the Reasons Still to Come...

A Greatest Poverty of Humanity is Not Mastering the 'Within'.... FIRST.

Let's Face It Hehe; God Yes,

Buddhists Often Make
The Best 'Christians'
And In Many Cases
As Well the Best Lovers
of the Rest of Nature in Peace and Balance too;

Why? They Come to Meditation In Ways of Autotelic
Flow That Generate A Conscious and Subconscious Being i Am

of Peace
iN Love
In Peace for Real;

i've Sampled The World
Religions As A Participant
Anthropology Observer All Around
The Globe in 11.3 MiLLioN Words of Poetic Responses
To Others; Yes, Sampled From All Around The World
iN 113 Months; Plus All the Other 3 MiLLioN or So
Words First, On the Wrong Planet Since
Thanks Giving Day of 2010, Trying
to Escape a Real Suicide Disease Then

To Frigging Come Back to Life Without A
Memory of Feeling A Smile At All; And What

i've Come to Find

Is 'They' Will Feel
And Sense; Yes,

Also KNoW

We aRe Human,

By Our Peace iN LoVE iN Peace
Within to Give, Share, Care, Heal
For All With Most Respect and Least Harm;

iNHaLinG Peace EXHaLinG LoVE iN JoY oF LiGHT;
A Free Meditating iN Flow Dance And Song Will Bring Free

As the EYes
of A Child

Sees And Does
to Be i Am LoVE iN Peace Freer too...

i Lived 66 Months Without the Memory
of How a SMiLe Feels; i Understand WHere

to Generate

Heaven or

Hell; Yep,

With Or Without
A Genuine Warm SMiLe For Real;

i Don't Waste my Days With Frowns
or Nothingness of Hell Any More...

It's What A Real Devil iN Hell Learns
Most to Rise Up, And Not Go Back
THeRE Again...

Nah, People

Who Really

Go to Hell,

Don't Send
Anyone THere
As They've Already
Met the Enemy Soundly

Defeated Within.

WHeRE All That's

Left Right
Remaining

iS A Cheshire
Cat SMiLe iN Life...

A Better World Starts Within;

A Worse World Ends Within And STarTS AGAiN Better...

It's New; An Always Now Process; i Am Only Human; THere is
No Ending Practices Of Truly Living to Stay Above the Surface of The DarK Ocean BeLow...

---

I always wonder when I see people that consider themselves decent keeping dogs chained up for their whole life.

In the absence of an upvote button, I'm just going to quote this.

For several of my most dickish moments, the opportunity to apologize was gone forever by the time I'd realised I was in the wrong. Agonizing about it wasn't helpful. Remembering not to do it again was helpful.

(Also - I remember an occasion where a former colleague had really gone out of her way to be helpful to me. Ten minutes later, I heard her say one of the most bluntly rascist things I've heard in my life.)

Well said.

Anyways, it would be best to move away from the more personal level, unless someone's got some stories about how their bullies insisted they weren't bullying (and actually believed it).

Considering the stereotypes about autistics and gossip, we sure gossip a lot.

Decent people behave callously because society has a strong pull, and we all want to be liked and accepted by others on some level.
People with certain opinions influence and attract others, whether those opinions are good or not.
If they spark some kind of admiration or allegiance in us, if they are charismatic, persuasive, good looking, brave, or simply a friend or family member we know and trust, we are more likely to adopt their opinions.
Look at all the modern day 'influencers' on social media that spout garbage and even inspire people to do dangerous things.

Some of my older family members are still openly racist, transphobic and homophobic.
They sometimes treat animals cruelly.
It was how they were raised.
They are still decent people overall.
They don't become monsters because of their views, but they do get shunned by society and get labelled monsters.
Which is equally callous, I suppose.

/\ I also have older relatives like that.
Sometimes my bio- mom says stuff that makes me shudder.She’s too old to change so I just ignore or change the subject.

Thank you. You've just said what I'm thinking.

The way I see it, when a lion kills a deer to eat, it's not fair on the deer. But if the lion spares the deer's life then he doesn't eat, so it then isn't fair on the lion. That's life. And it's only human to complain about unfairness, but unfairness is only unfair to the people experiencing it.
So basically we're all hypocrites, unless you want to try and live your life being perfect. I don't know any NTs that are perfect, even the nicest people I've ever met still have flaws and have said or done dickish things but doesn't make them a bad person as a whole. Others do more dickish things on a regular basis that can make them a not so nice person.

No one is perfect. We all have moments when our needs cause us to feel a bit selfish, or overly self-interested. If we didn't have that drive we wouldn't eat or sleep, go to work for money, or do anything.

It's normal to be aware of our good feelings and to want them to continue. It's normal to be aware of our bad feelings and want them to stop. Sometimes we might derive a good feeling from doing something that inadvertently hurts someone else. Most people aren't doing that thing with the express desire of hurting another person, but because their internal dialogue is only focused on themselves. An example might be playing your music too loudly when you're in a good mood or at a party. Somewhere in your conscience you know it might bother the neighbours and you aren't doing it to bother the neighbours, but the dopamine rush from indulging in your own happiness takes precedent and blinds you to what's happening for them. Likewise if you speed in your car or run a red light when no one's looking, you might rationalize that it's because you don't want to be late for work so you don't get fired. We all need to survive and do what's best for us on a short term basis, and with luck a long term basis too.

Sometimes we want our bad feelings to stop so we do the same thing: thinking of ourselves first. Examples might be slamming a door, skipping school, or making excuses not to help another person. Maybe we're in a bad mood and don't have the energy to play nice. Maybe we need to self-indulge and stim, journal, or otherwise stare at the wall until those bad feelings stop. We aren't trying to hurt the other person, or sometimes maybe a little if we're passive-aggressive / spiteful, but it's mostly about ourselves and our needs.

We have the unfortunate ability to know our own feelings and rationale for everything we do, even if it's impulsive. We sympathize with ourselves because we know ourselves and can make excuses or forgive ourselves (most of the time) more than we forgive others. That's because we don't have an ability to know the other person's life story, motivation, need, or feelings at any given time.

As for being "callous" which I assume means purposefully rude, I think it's a learning curve which is supposed to start when we grow out of our egocentric stage around age 3. Until then children engage in parallel play beside other children but they don't really interact or have a sense of other people existing. It's like the other kids are just features in their life story or perception, rather than separate entities. If this feeling of disdain for others becomes a pattern especially into adulthood, without any known reason or trauma to support it, then the person should be very cautious about their choice of words or their behaviours around others.

Racism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc., were certainly more common for older generations but now with the onset of technology we have access to learning about others, about psychology, and about ways to get help. We don't all have to be PC or parrot the exact same philosophy, but it's important to assume other people are just as deserving of a good day as the rest of us -- until and unless they've done something egregious to prove otherwise.

The deer and lion thing? Yeah, but deer don't eat other deer and I don't believe lions eat other lions. We're talking about human beings hurting other human beings when it's not for self-defense.

That's not normal in the animal kingdom.