Is there such a thing as 'friendship flings'?

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KitLily
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25 Jan 2023, 4:02 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
But you've opened up, quite a bit, to all of us here on Wrong Planet.

Of course, what you have with us here on Wrong Planet is a one-dimensional kind of emotional intimacy, in a safely anonymous context, separate from the other ingredients of a friendship.


Yes, I'm quite private in real life, I don't tell people much about myself because I think it's too weird e.g. I am a book editor of mostly erotic or M/M romance, I also write fanfiction which is often sexy. I don't think people in real life would like that at all! I've got a group of online friends who do the same as me i.e. editors and fanfic writers. But not in real life.

Mona Pereth wrote:
KitLily wrote:
I'm just accepting that I have short friendships, I'm just 'like that'.

It doesn't sound like this is what you really want, though. It sounds like you wish you could have longer-lived friendships, if only you could find people willing to be more patient with you. Is that correct? If so, then it isn't you who are just 'like that,' but rather your social circumstances (e.g. the attitudes of the people whom you happen to have become friends with) that are forcing you to be "like that"?


Yes, I'd like a real life group of supportive, loving friends and even extended family, who accept and love me. But I've learned that you end up with what you end up with. Life is just like that, it's random and you can't fight it, accepting it is easier than fighting and being unhappy with your lot. I do hope my daughter doesn't end up as the downtrodden wife and mother though, I hope she has a fun, independent, fulfilling life.

But as I keep saying, maybe life will change when we move house next year and I'll be in a different situation!


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Mona Pereth
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25 Jan 2023, 5:40 am

KitLily wrote:
Yes, I'm quite private in real life, I don't tell people much about myself because I think it's too weird e.g. I am a book editor of mostly erotic or M/M romance, I also write fanfiction which is often sexy. I don't think people in real life would like that at all!

Or, at least, the people in your immediate neighborhood.

I too am very private with the people I know in my immediate neighborhood. I don't consider my immediate neighbors to be potential close friends. Throughout my adult life, the only people I've ever regarded as potential close friends have been people who shared one or more of my interests, and who I met in the context of activities pertaining to those interests.

KitLily wrote:
I've got a group of online friends who do the same as me i.e. editors and fanfic writers. But not in real life.

Is there any chance of meeting any of your online friends in real life, at least once you are finally able to move out of the village you now live in?

KitLily wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
KitLily wrote:
I'm just accepting that I have short friendships, I'm just 'like that'.

It doesn't sound like this is what you really want, though. It sounds like you wish you could have longer-lived friendships, if only you could find people willing to be more patient with you. Is that correct? If so, then it isn't you who are just 'like that,' but rather your social circumstances (e.g. the attitudes of the people whom you happen to have become friends with) that are forcing you to be "like that"?


Yes, I'd like a real life group of supportive, loving friends and even extended family, who accept and love me. But I've learned that you end up with what you end up with. Life is just like that, it's random and you can't fight it, accepting it is easier than fighting and being unhappy with your lot.

Or perhaps you could consider ways to increase the likelihood of keeping your friends?

For example, if you happen to have a personal blog, perhaps you could write some essays about your views on friendship -- including, perhaps, the importance of conflict resolution. You could then share those essays with some of your online friends.

Perhaps you could also make a point of learning more about the arts of conflict resolution (e.g. how to be assertive without being aggressive) and then write some blog posts about what you've learned. This might help to build a consensus among at least some of your online friends about the importance of resolving misunderstandings, rather than throwing away a friendship at the first sign of anything less than perfect mutual mind-reading.

KitLily wrote:
I do hope my daughter doesn't end up as the downtrodden wife and mother though, I hope she has a fun, independent, fulfilling life.

But as I keep saying, maybe life will change when we move house next year and I'll be in a different situation!

Good luck with your hopefully forthcoming move!


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KitLily
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26 Jan 2023, 10:02 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
KitLily wrote:
Yes, I'm quite private in real life, I don't tell people much about myself because I think it's too weird e.g. I am a book editor of mostly erotic or M/M romance, I also write fanfiction which is often sexy. I don't think people in real life would like that at all!

Or, at least, the people in your immediate neighborhood.

I too am very private with the people I know in my immediate neighborhood. I don't consider my immediate neighbors to be potential close friends. Throughout my adult life, the only people I've ever regarded as potential close friends have been people who shared one or more of my interests, and who I met in the context of activities pertaining to those interests.


I think this is where humans have gone wrong. We used to have local friends and share interests with local people. Now we're removed from actual people and only know online ones, who could be anyone.

Mona Pereth wrote:
Is there any chance of meeting any of your online friends in real life, at least once you are finally able to move out of the village you now live in?


Probably not because most of them are in America. I work for American companies. I might meet up with some people from social media in real life. If they aren't dodgy.

Mona Pereth wrote:
Or perhaps you could consider ways to increase the likelihood of keeping your friends?

Perhaps you could also make a point of learning more about the arts of conflict resolution (e.g. how to be assertive without being aggressive) and then write some blog posts about what you've learned. This might help to build a consensus among at least some of your online friends about the importance of resolving misunderstandings, rather than throwing away a friendship at the first sign of anything less than perfect mutual mind-reading.


I've tried all sorts of things to keep friends e.g. me making all the running, which was tiring. Following Shasta Nelson's Friendship Triangle idea of positivity, consistency and vulnerability.

It just seems that people are happy to chat occasionally but never want to take it further. I think these days, if we can't actually give people something, they don't see us as worth their time. Humans have become economically-minded.

tbh I've given up, I just do my hobbies on my own and try to enjoy myself happily without friends. I've done so much work on myself, learning about myself, healing past hurts, how to get along with people etc. but other people don't meet me halfway.

That blog idea sounds quite good.


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Mona Pereth
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26 Jan 2023, 3:08 pm

KitLily wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
I too am very private with the people I know in my immediate neighborhood. I don't consider my immediate neighbors to be potential close friends. Throughout my adult life, the only people I've ever regarded as potential close friends have been people who shared one or more of my interests, and who I met in the context of activities pertaining to those interests.


I think this is where humans have gone wrong. We used to have local friends and share interests with local people. Now we're removed from actual people and only know online ones, who could be anyone.

Hmm, I see I wasn't entirely clear. Although my friends have almost never been people who lived in my immediate neighborhood, most of them DID live in the New York City metro area, and I did see them in-person at least occasionally.

Others were long-distance friendships. But, back before the era of today's major social media, even long-distance friendships were more highly valued than they typically are today, because they weren't a dime a dozen. So, even some of these long-distance friendships lasted quite a few years. Also, I did meet some of them in-person at least once, usually when they happened to be visiting New York City for other reasons, and in one case I traveled out to Texas once to visit a woman with whom I'd developed an especially close friendship by phone.

KitLily wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Is there any chance of meeting any of your online friends in real life, at least once you are finally able to move out of the village you now live in?


Probably not because most of them are in America. I work for American companies. I might meet up with some people from social media in real life. If they aren't dodgy.

How have you typically gone about trying to connect with people on social media?

KitLily wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Or perhaps you could consider ways to increase the likelihood of keeping your friends?

Perhaps you could also make a point of learning more about the arts of conflict resolution (e.g. how to be assertive without being aggressive) and then write some blog posts about what you've learned. This might help to build a consensus among at least some of your online friends about the importance of resolving misunderstandings, rather than throwing away a friendship at the first sign of anything less than perfect mutual mind-reading.


I've tried all sorts of things to keep friends e.g. me making all the running, which was tiring.

Hmmm, I hadn't heard the expression "making all the running" before. But, Googling, I found a definition here.

KitLily wrote:
Following Shasta Nelson's Friendship Triangle idea of positivity, consistency and vulnerability.

Hmmm, I seem to recall a discussion about Shasta Nelson's Friendship Triangle here on WP. Googling, I find a discussion about it that I started here, in the thread Thoughts about friendship.

Anyhow, as I said in that thread, I consider Shasta Nelson's model of friendship to be very incomplete.

KitLily wrote:
It just seems that people are happy to chat occasionally but never want to take it further. I think these days, if we can't actually give people something, they don't see us as worth their time. Humans have become economically-minded.

tbh I've given up, I just do my hobbies on my own and try to enjoy myself happily without friends.

It's certainly good to be able to enjoy hobbies on one's own.

KitLily wrote:
I've done so much work on myself, learning about myself, healing past hurts, how to get along with people etc. but other people don't meet me halfway.

Hmm, I've always thought of finding friends as primarily a matter of finding the right people, rather than primarily a matter of working on oneself, although working on oneself can be important too.

Anyhow, in the above-linked thread, I suggested that you look for friends in the online autistic community, e.g. Wrong Planet and other online forums and social media communities for autistic people, listed here. These include lots of people in the U.K., some of whom might live close enough to visit occasionally, especially after you move.

To increase your likelihood of finding friends on WP and in other autistic online forums, I would suggest also that you edit your signature to mention your hobbies, to attract people with whom you have more points of commonality than just autism.

KitLily wrote:
That blog idea sounds quite good.

Good luck with it!


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KitLily
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27 Jan 2023, 9:15 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Hmm, I see I wasn't entirely clear. Although my friends have almost never been people who lived in my immediate neighborhood, most of them DID live in the New York City metro area, and I did see them in-person at least occasionally.

Others were long-distance friendships. But, back before the era of today's major social media, even long-distance friendships were more highly valued than they typically are today, because they weren't a dime a dozen. So, even some of these long-distance friendships lasted quite a few years. Also, I did meet some of them in-person at least once, usually when they happened to be visiting New York City for other reasons, and in one case I traveled out to Texas once to visit a woman with whom I'd developed an especially close friendship by phone.


I remember those days. Long chats on the phone with friends who'd moved away. Keeping in touch via letter. Happy days.

Mona Pereth wrote:
How have you typically gone about trying to connect with people on social media?


I don't really. I just have casual friendships.

Mona Pereth wrote:
Anyhow, as I said in that thread, I consider Shasta Nelson's model of friendship to be very incomplete.


Now that's interesting! Why do you think it's incomplete?

Mona Pereth wrote:
Anyhow, in the above-linked thread, I suggested that you look for friends in the online autistic community, e.g. Wrong Planet and other online forums and social media communities for autistic people, listed here. These include lots of people in the U.K., some of whom might live close enough to visit occasionally, especially after you move.


Thanks for that list! I am only interested in real life friends, I'll set out with that intention. I've got dozens of online friends, they aren't very helpful when I need practical help or a coffee or a hug or to go to an event with someone.


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Mona Pereth
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27 Jan 2023, 2:41 pm

KitLily wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Anyhow, as I said in that thread, I consider Shasta Nelson's model of friendship to be very incomplete.


Now that's interesting! Why do you think it's incomplete?

I explained this here, a while back, and then recently added some further thoughts here. Feel free to reply to me in that thread, which I have revived.

Briefly, her model involves only two of what I consider to be the four foundations of friendship, whereas I think a friendship needs to start with at least three of those four foundations (any 3 out of the 4). The four foundations are:

1) Companionship (having fun together) -- roughly equivalent to Shasta Nelson's "positivity."
2) Emotional intimacy -- roughly equivalent to "vulnerability."
3) Comradeship -- facing common challenges together.
4) Doing favors for each other.

Also I think more than just "consistency" is needed in order to build a close friendship (with genuine and deep mutual caring) from those foundations. It's also important to have compatible ways of handling any disagreements or conflicts that may arise, as they inevitably will. It also helps to have compatible beliefs and values overall.

KitLily wrote:
Thanks for that list! I am only interested in real life friends, I'll set out with that intention. I've got dozens of online friends, they aren't very helpful when I need practical help or a coffee or a hug or to go to an event with someone.

Even here on Wrong Planet, there are plenty of people who live in the U.K., at least a few of whom could potentially become real-life friends of yours, it seems to me -- at least once you move to a less isolated place.

Again I would suggest editing your signature to mention aspects of your life other than just autism and related personal traits, to attract the attention of people with whom you have more in common than just autism. I would especially recommend that you mention your hobbies or other things you deem to be fun, to attract people with a compatible basis for what Shasta Nelson calls "positivity" and I call "companionship": having fun together. (Simply by meeting in a support forum like Wrong Planet, you already are pretty much automatically guaranteed to have a basis for what she calls "vulnerability" and I call "emotional intimacy.")


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KitLily
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28 Jan 2023, 2:58 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
I explained this here, a while back, and then recently added some further thoughts here. Feel free to reply to me in that thread, which I have revived.

Briefly, her model involves only two of what I consider to be the four foundations of friendship, whereas I think a friendship needs to start with at least three of those four foundations (any 3 out of the 4). The four foundations are:

1) Companionship (having fun together) -- roughly equivalent to Shasta Nelson's "positivity."
2) Emotional intimacy -- roughly equivalent to "vulnerability."
3) Comradeship -- facing common challenges together.
4) Doing favors for each other.


I definitely, definitely agree that Comradeship is vital to friendship. Most people meet good friends while they are doing something that challenges them and they have to stick together to overcome/deal with it.

I assumed pregnancy and motherhood would mean that I'd make good friends as we moved through the challenges together. Didn't happen :roll:


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JustFoundHere
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29 Jan 2023, 4:31 pm

It's probably best to consider deveolping, and maintaining friendships as long-term objectives.



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30 Jan 2023, 2:06 pm

KitLily wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
I explained this here, a while back, and then recently added some further thoughts here. Feel free to reply to me in that thread, which I have revived.

Briefly, her model involves only two of what I consider to be the four foundations of friendship, whereas I think a friendship needs to start with at least three of those four foundations (any 3 out of the 4). The four foundations are:

1) Companionship (having fun together) -- roughly equivalent to Shasta Nelson's "positivity."
2) Emotional intimacy -- roughly equivalent to "vulnerability."
3) Comradeship -- facing common challenges together.
4) Doing favors for each other.


I definitely, definitely agree that Comradeship is vital to friendship. Most people meet good friends while they are doing something that challenges them and they have to stick together to overcome/deal with it.

Yes, this is certainly one of the ways a friendship can develop.

I wouldn't go quite so far as to say that comradeship is "essential" to friendship. However, if a friendship lacks comradeship, then, I think, it needs to have all the other three foundations of friendship: companionship, emotional intimacy, and mutual favors (helping each other in a variety of ways).

KitLily wrote:
I assumed pregnancy and motherhood would mean that I'd make good friends as we moved through the challenges together. Didn't happen :roll:

Problem is, pregnancy and motherhood are individual/family-oriented challenges, not group challenges (beyond the family itself). So, they don't really lend themselves to comradeship, although they do lend themselves to mutual favors (e.g. two or more families agreeing to babysit for each other regularly) and emotional intimacy (e.g. mothers talking to each other about their respective experiences with their pregnancies and/or their children).


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30 Jan 2023, 2:21 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
KitLily wrote:
I assumed pregnancy and motherhood would mean that I'd make good friends as we moved through the challenges together. Didn't happen :roll:

Problem is, pregnancy and motherhood are individual/family-oriented challenges, not group challenges (outside the family). So, they don't really lend themselves to comradeship, although they do lend themselves to mutual favors (e.g. two or more families agreeing to babysit for each other regularly) and emotional intimacy (e.g. mothers talking to each other about their respective experiences with their pregnancies and/or their children).


That's kind of reassuring that I'm normal in not finding good friends due to pregnancy and motherhood but kind of, WTF! How are we supposed to find friends if we can't find them through an experience that so many people share! How complicated is this world FFS! :roll: :roll:


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30 Jan 2023, 2:33 pm

KitLily wrote:
That's kind of reassuring that I'm normal in not finding good friends due to pregnancy and motherhood but kind of, WTF! How are we supposed to find friends if we can't find them through an experience that so many people share! How complicated is this world FFS! :roll: :roll:

My point was that, in order to be able to find good friends due to pregnancy and motherhood, you would need to be actually helping each other out with at least some of these challenges (e.g. by taking turns babysitting for each other), as well as talking to each other about them. The mere fact of being a parent certainly doesn't automatically make you a friend to all other parents.

Also, the more common an experience is, the less likely it is to be, in and of itself, something that draws the affected people together. (Relatively rare experiences do draw people together, at least to some extent, via relief at not being the only person in the world to have them.)


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KitLily
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30 Jan 2023, 2:40 pm

Eh, I think I'll give up. Friendship is too complicated for me. I'm going to stay as the cat that walked on her own.


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