Formalized friendship / alternative extended families?

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KitLily
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25 Jan 2023, 3:33 am

I think the problem these days with finding friends is that no one depends on anyone for anything. We can all get whatever we want from the internet. We're all going along on our own tracks, independent of anyone else. So friendship has disappeared.

In the past, everyone's life depended on everyone else's support and each person was valuable to the tribe or community. They shared experiences and friendship was born out of those.

Maybe we need some kind of community where people have to depend on each other, somehow. I've no idea how that would work though! 21st century humans are very independent!

I looked up the word 'friend' and it's one of the oldest words in the English language (freond). It literally means 'someone who's got my back in battle.' That is eye-opening isn't it. Another of the oldest words in English is 'love' (leof) It shows what values we prioritised from our earliest days.

I think that's why there were so many Anglo Saxons called Leofgar, Leofwin, Leofric etc. Because their parents wanted to put 'love' in their names :heart:


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Mona Pereth
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25 Jan 2023, 5:03 am

KitLily wrote:
I think the problem these days with finding friends is that no one depends on anyone for anything. We can all get whatever we want from the internet. We're all going along on our own tracks, independent of anyone else. So friendship has disappeared.

In the past, everyone's life depended on everyone else's support and each person was valuable to the tribe or community. They shared experiences and friendship was born out of those.

Maybe we need some kind of community where people have to depend on each other, somehow. I've no idea how that would work though! 21st century humans are very independent!

.... or, at least, 21st century humans have the illusion of being very independent. Not all of us are so independent, and all of us risk losing our independence, in one way or another, sooner or later.

Those of us who have adult children -- and who have good relationships with said children -- may feel that they can rely on their children in old age. But I question whether, even for them, it might not be a good idea to have an additional backup support network. After all, their adult children have their own lives too.

Those of us who don't have children will absolutely need to have an alternative support network in old age, or in the event that we get seriously ill or injured before old age.

KitLily wrote:
I looked up the word 'friend' and it's one of the oldest words in the English language (freond). It literally means 'someone who's got my back in battle.' That is eye-opening isn't it.

Yep.

KitLily wrote:
Another of the oldest words in English is 'love' (leof) It shows what values we prioritised from our earliest days.

I think that's why there were so many Anglo Saxons called Leofgar, Leofwin, Leofric etc. Because their parents wanted to put 'love' in their names :heart:

Seems likely.


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Mona Pereth
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26 Jan 2023, 5:30 pm

Archmage Arcane wrote:
(Mona: Let me know if I assume things about your groups which aren't the case or where the language could be clarified or modified)

Wiccan covens are a useful model for us. They're groups of 13 or fewer people. They're led by one or more elders (more traditional groups are led by a High Priestess and usually a High Priest). These are the equivalent of clergy in other religions. There is usually an inner circle of the most active members who are at the center of meetings. We find that a group of greater than 13 people becomes difficult to manage, so at that point a group would divide in half. The new groups would still have contact with each other, but would have more contact within their respective groups.

Similarities and differences between Mona's friendship groups and a coven:

Just a reminder here: We are talking about a proposed new type of group, not any of my actual current groups, none of which are what I call "formal friendship groups."

Many Wiccan covens have, or participate in, public "open circles" in addition to the private gatherings of the coven itself. It seems to me that our current groups are more analogous to Wiccan open circles than to Wiccan covens.

I think it would be nice if a formal friendship group could develop among those of us who have a leading role in, or who otherwise are actively helping to build, the groups listed here and other similar groups (which are open autistic adults generally). The common bond would be comradeship in working together to help build the larger autistic community.

If/when such a formal friendship group is launched among us, we might then, eventually, be able to help other autistic people create formal friendship groups too, centered around whatever kind of common bond happens to relevant to those particular people.

Anyhow, back to your analogies to Wiccan covens:

Archmage Arcane wrote:
Both types of group can become a 'family of choice'. In covens, the family of choice forms because there is a common religion and common goals among members. In Mona's groups, it's also possible that 'families of choice' could form due to common personal philosophy (and brain wiring :) ) and common goals among members.

Hmm, I was under the impression that a Wiccan coven was, itself, a "family of choice," at least among the initiated members in initiatory traditions. Is that not correct?


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Archmage Arcane
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26 Jan 2023, 6:13 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I wouldn’t like this at all. I don’t like forced friendships or forced socialization.

Fraternal organizations might have been an Aspie’s nightmare. People in them were subject to scrutiny, and these were very conformist organizations. If you were “weird,” you might be ostracized.


Then we would have thrown ourselves out at the first meeting. At the very least, I would be gone. I'm pretty weird. :)



Archmage Arcane
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26 Jan 2023, 6:17 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Archmage Arcane wrote:
(Mona: Let me know if I assume things about your groups which aren't the case or where the language could be clarified or modified)

Wiccan covens are a useful model for us. They're groups of 13 or fewer people. They're led by one or more elders (more traditional groups are led by a High Priestess and usually a High Priest). These are the equivalent of clergy in other religions. There is usually an inner circle of the most active members who are at the center of meetings. We find that a group of greater than 13 people becomes difficult to manage, so at that point a group would divide in half. The new groups would still have contact with each other, but would have more contact within their respective groups.

Similarities and differences between Mona's friendship groups and a coven:

Just a reminder here: We are talking about a proposed new type of group, not any of my actual current groups, none of which are what I call "formal friendship groups."

Many Wiccan covens have, or participate in, public "open circles" in addition to the private gatherings of the coven itself. It seems to me that our current groups are more analogous to Wiccan open circles than to Wiccan covens.

I think it would be nice if a formal friendship group could develop among those of us who have a leading role in, or who otherwise are actively helping to build, the groups listed here and other similar groups (which are open autistic adults generally). The common bond would be comradeship in working together to help build the larger autistic community.

If/when such a formal friendship group is launched among us, we might then, eventually, be able to help other autistic people create formal friendship groups too, centered around whatever kind of common bond happens to relevant to those particular people.

Anyhow, back to your analogies to Wiccan covens:

Archmage Arcane wrote:
Both types of group can become a 'family of choice'. In covens, the family of choice forms because there is a common religion and common goals among members. In Mona's groups, it's also possible that 'families of choice' could form due to common personal philosophy (and brain wiring :) ) and common goals among members.

Hmm, I was under the impression that a Wiccan coven was, itself, a "family of choice," at least among the initiated members in initiatory traditions. Is that not correct?


It is a 'family of choice'. I think that's there somewhere. Might have been a bit circular 'to protect the innocent'. Force of habit.



KitLily
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27 Jan 2023, 9:02 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
.... or, at least, 21st century humans have the illusion of being very independent. Not all of us are so independent, and all of us risk losing our independence, in one way or another, sooner or later.

Those of us who have adult children -- and who have good relationships with said children -- may feel that they can rely on their children in old age. But I question whether, even for them, it might not be a good idea to have an additional backup support network. After all, their adult children have their own lives too.

Those of us who don't have children will absolutely need to have an alternative support network in old age, or in the event that we get seriously ill or injured before old age.


You hit the nail on the head! We have the ILLUSION of being very independent. When in fact we all depend on each other, there is an invisible network of practical workers, e.g. energy workers, medical workers, delivery drivers, security workers, who make our lives easy. Often these workers live in other countries e.g. clothes makers, and export products to us.

In the West we are very spoilt and don't know how dependent on other people we are because they are hidden...

In the past, everyone was multi-skilled (e.g. everyone carried a weapon and fire lighting equipment) and could look after themselves, or at least had a close community around them to co-operate with.

The thing that worries me about people without adult children is: who will ADVOCATE for them when they're elderly? Never mind caring for them. Who will say:
'Mum can't digest fresh fish, they make her throw up.' 'Dad can't lie down on his left side, it makes him fall out of bed.'

There will be plenty of carers...but who will advocate for elderly people? I know my father in law is beyond grateful that he has 4 adult children who will battle social services and government departments to protect him. They have already taken him out of a retirement home because that home left him lying on the floor for 24 hours without checking up on him...He now lives in a flat attached to his eldest daughter's house.


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