Tanks,German ones, American ones, British ones 2 Ukraine

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Oh boy , local news has reported this , about Tanks being sent to Ukraine . Millions of dollars apiece and all the support gear to keep them running .. ???? Gotta think about this , it seems that Tanks went out with fixxed position fighting . Like a Castle or a fort ..All you do is become a target to draw firepower from inside a sardine can ?
It kinda seems to me that this is like bringing a sword to a gunfight . Javelin , And Tow , and Laws single man operated missile system , Not sure if i should include the stinger missile( possibly a aerial threat devise.)
Brothers had a hobby of debating war type stuff .While growing up . Now days these systems are designed for armoured vehicles, to disable or destroy them." Really" they are sending tanks . Against missile systems .
Maybe the German tanks might survive ? They have pretty advanced defence / firing systems, i had read . Maybe it would turn the tide of a land based war.??? IMHO , but would not want to be in a Tank in a current Warzone.
Well it will be advantageous to the Industrial Military Complex, Inventory turn over, more profits, at least .
[IF YOU DO NOT COUNT the cost in Human Life], of course.!

Last edited by Jakki on 27 Jan 2023, 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

need to amend this into a Not fun thread....just a different twist on a serious topic.

As a somewhat hefty gentleman I'd prefer to not be squished into a tank.

Eat salo and drink horilka.

You cant live by infantry alone.

You need speed, armor, and firepower, in a symmetrical war even in this age of stinger missiles.

Heavy tanks have advantages and disadvantages.

The more the heavy machine is the more fuel it needs, the slower it is, the higher chance of getting stuck in terrain.

Advantages are pretty clear, from more ammo, more armor, more precision and punch in greater distance.

Since the news from Ukraine about battles is pretty spotty I don't know what these tanks mean to Ukraine.

But if they are asking for 400 tanks, at least, I bet they mean it.

Russian tanks are wider variety, and are trained in them.

It also means maintenance is easy as many tanks have interchangeable parts.

Russians know how to make good tanks, and cheaply.

I find claims that Russia has x amount of whatever dubious and rather just propaganda than serious information.

I bet Ukrainians know what they are facing, but I doubt the media more than the actual Ukrainian military.

Servicing different versions of tanks from different countries will be logistical nightmare, as well as each unit of tanks will have to have different training.

I really don't envy Ukraine this situation.

I was greatly surprised US decided to give Abrahams to Ukraine.
But these tanks require lot of refueling. They have turbine engines that eat up fuel like crazy. I also don't know if Ukraine military has what it takes to maintain them in combat.
That being said its a hell of good tank with good armor, despite it being extremely expensive and not so easy to take care of.

Leopard tanks are one of world best heavy tanks period.

UK tanks don't know anything about.

not sure that the Germans are going to be willing to train anyone in the use of their tanks? From things have seen over the last few years, It almost appears that the Germans might even consider their tanks at the level of a top secret weapon ... Had relatives seemed rather enthusiastic about those models of tanks .

Sure hope those mobile targets don't turn into their operators coffins .

This.
It's a symmetrical war, something we've not seen in Europe for decades. And it turns out, tanks are necessary.

Leopards have been exported all over Europe and to Canada, so they are certainly not secret Wunderwaffe jealously protected by Germans. However, the terms of use are that without German permission, they couldn't be exported to any third country.

Thank you Magz did not realized that these things were sent all over the place ...... still concerned for safety of personnel inside those big metal targets . The new infantry support guided antitank rocket/ missiles are supposably almost incapable of missing their targets .Due to built in guidance systems . Then suppose the weakest point on any tank is it threads . And once one is damaged by anything . All the tank can do is run around in circles . And how much more of a target might that be ?

I'm pretty sure there were kids crawling all over a Leopard 1 during the airshow near my house, so if they were secret someone's really failed to uphold their side of the bargain.

A soldier at a war always risks his life
To put it simply, killing soldiers in a tank requires a lot more effort than killing soldiers not in a tank. Seriously damaging a tank is very hard, that's how these vehicles are designed. Possible, but very hard. The whole group tactics of cooperation between intelligence, tanks, artillery and infantry is all about making it even harder.

Canada is sending 4 tanks as well. No idea what kind, if we built them or bought them from the USA, but Canada is also on the list.

The USA is sending the most, IIRC, and overall it's something like ~60 tanks headed to Ukraine. When I heard that number I thought "In the grand scheme of the world and the scale of war, that doesn't seem like very many."

But I don't know much about tank warfare or war in general. I mean, I've played "Scorched Earth," and seen that Brad Pit movie "Fury." Maybe 60 tanks are a lot of tanks? Maybe today's tanks can do a lot more damage than the ones built for WW2? Maybe they can withstand more damage, too ? Maybe they just have to be slightly better than whatever russia is using in order to out-tank them by multiples ?

I dunno either.

I do know that warplanes get more expensive.

A WWII fighter plane cost about 150 thousand dollars back when a family car costed about 1000 dollars.

In the 1990s the average new car costed about 18K, but the newest American stealth fighter costed about 100 million a pop. So a WWII single engine fighter costed 150 new cars, but a 1990 fighter costed more than five thousand new 1990 cars because of the technology they have to cram into the plane. They call it "the death spiral". Someday the US will have just one warplane...the airforce will use it on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. And the Navy will get to use it the rest of the week!

Ha!

I remember reading a post from magz saying the new American tanks use jet fuel and have much more complicated mechanical systems. Probably to move around faster, but, that would explain why they may cost as much as a 1990's fighter jet did if they're up around that price point.

*Googles* Apparently new tanks cost $3-20M and in 2019 new American tanks on order were $6M USD a piece.

...I guess? $6M seems like a lot of fkn money for something that isn't outfitted with anything luxurious whatsoever. And somehow I doubt the electronics and technology in it truly costs that to R&D and produce. Treads, steel, twisty turny bit at the top, some armour, big bullets, something to aim with, some kind of communications system etc.. someone's making a lot of money supplying components and building these things. Maybe that includes delivery to anywhere in the world? :p

Tanks have "luxurious" active armour, precise fire systems, communication systems immune to jamming... yes, it costs that much. Civilian equivalents, even most luxurious, don't need to be operational in environment expected for tanks.

60 tanks is less than one brigade. In a war like that, it's enough to make up for losses of a few weeks.
USA promised 31 but it's probably only the first batch.

Canada is sending Leopards.

Poland has supplied over 260 tanks to Ukraine already, 14 Leopards and 30 PT-90 are promised currently. The only country that supplied more is... Russia, with over 400 captured.

They set the Price that high, but there’s no way it Costs that much.

These are publicly traded for profit companies, not government owned and producing at cost.

Much like a $1200 iPhone probably Costs more like $150 to manufacture and ship. Or whatever, some amount far lower than the price.