Freedom of speech vs Respecting other people's feelings

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What is more important to you?
Freedom of speech 74%  74%  [ 17 ]
Respecting other people's feelings 26%  26%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 23

Dengashinobi
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12 Feb 2023, 9:57 am

What is more important to you? Not hurting other people's feelings even if that means you have to self-censor, or the right to express your opinion even if that makes somebody feel bad?

This is also an Autism topic not just a political one, since autistics are notorious for being blunt.



Josh68
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12 Feb 2023, 10:05 am

I couldn't vote because both are equally important to me. I wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings unnecessarily, but I would never want to restrict a person's right to express their thoughts regardless of how insensitive or unpalatable they may be.


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12 Feb 2023, 10:10 am

I feel its not one or the other; its situational.



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12 Feb 2023, 2:24 pm

Yes, I can't come down on one side or the other. Either can be tyrannical. I used to be more in the freedom-of-speech camp, but in those days I didn't know how powerful words can be.



Minder
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12 Feb 2023, 2:31 pm

If you say things people don't like, don't be surprised if they shun you. They have the right to shun you, just as you have the right to say what you want.

However, I don't think the government should be allowed to legally prosecute you for what you say (though if you are a government employee, you must still abide by the rules of your workplace, which may include limitations of speech and should have been outlined when you started the job).

What I've observed is that many free speech advocates (not all) seem to think that they should be able to speak free of any consequences. But that's just now how it works.



DanielW
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12 Feb 2023, 2:45 pm

You are comparing apples and oranges. Freedom of speech isn't in conflict with other people's feelings. Freedom of speech simply means that you may say what you like, but that you are also free to take the consequences of that speech.



techstepgenr8tion
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12 Feb 2023, 2:45 pm

This isn't a spectrum.

Freedom of speech is what a government can retaliate against you for. It's freedom to 'legal speech' (excluding inciting mob violence and stochastic terrorism), most importantly your right to criticize the government without government retaliation.

The later is good social skills and obeying social norms.

That said there will be issues where some have reason to believe that most of society is dangerously wrong on an issue of substantial future impact, they have the right to express the concern / publicly make their case even if it hurts people's feelings but they'd also understand that public blow-back and damage to their reputation among people who won't see it their way is an imputed cost.

Where it gets tricky is if a person raises such a concern and finds out that they're on a hiring black-list across HR departments (for example the HR lady in Canada having her tirade about the truckers, or HR departments, it was a strange rant where it was tricky to tell if her vitriol was at the truckers or the HR profession). Some issues will come up where you then have to see whether people have the right to stab each other's right to income based on politics, and that's an issue that we're really not good at handling yet partially because it's hard to say there's a one-size-fits-all solution and a really unfortunate number of people are perfectly okay with their side doing something but not the opposing side so enforcement also would be tricky.


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Dengashinobi
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12 Feb 2023, 2:53 pm

Minder wrote:
If you say things people don't like, don't be surprised if they shun you. They have the right to shun you, just as you have the right to say what you want.

However, I don't think the government should be allowed to legally prosecute you for what you say (though if you are a government employee, you must still abide by the rules of your workplace, which may include limitations of speech and should have been outlined when you started the job).

What I've observed is that many free speech advocates (not all) seem to think that they should be able to speak free of any consequences. But that's just now how it works.


Yes sure, it is what it is. Right now the greatest pressure comes from the wokes but there is also pressure from the conservative camp. I remember when Bernie Sanders run against Hilary, a journalist asked him whether he believed in God and Sanders dodged the question. In short an American president cannot be openly an atheist. Politicians know that. Me for myself I would prefer people to be free to say what they truly believe.



Dengashinobi
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12 Feb 2023, 2:55 pm

DanielW wrote:
You are comparing apples and oranges. Freedom of speech isn't in conflict with other people's feelings. Freedom of speech simply means that you may say what you like, but that you are also free to take the consequences of that speech.


Like drawing caricatures of the prophet Mohammed for example.



Minder
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12 Feb 2023, 2:59 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
Minder wrote:
If you say things people don't like, don't be surprised if they shun you. They have the right to shun you, just as you have the right to say what you want.

However, I don't think the government should be allowed to legally prosecute you for what you say (though if you are a government employee, you must still abide by the rules of your workplace, which may include limitations of speech and should have been outlined when you started the job).

What I've observed is that many free speech advocates (not all) seem to think that they should be able to speak free of any consequences. But that's just now how it works.


Yes sure, it is what it is. Right now the greatest pressure comes from the wokes but there is also pressure from the conservative camp. I remember when Bernie Sanders run against Hilary, a journalist asked him whether he believed in God and Sanders dodged the question. In short an American president cannot be openly an atheist. Politicians know that. Me for myself I would prefer people to be free to say what they truly believe.


And people are free to say what they truly believe. There is no law stopping you from announcing controversial social or political opinions.

However, if you do, people might not want to talk to you. They might get mad at you and call you names (and they have the right to do this). They might demand that you be de-platformed. And if your platform is a privately held social media entity, that company absolutely has the right to dump you. The only thing that the First Amendment protects you from is the government jailing you for your opinions.



DanielW
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12 Feb 2023, 2:59 pm

you are free to draw anything you like - Doing so may have intended or unintended consequences. You have to decide for your self which is more important to you in a given situation. There isn't an absolute here.



techstepgenr8tion
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12 Feb 2023, 3:05 pm

Minder wrote:
And if your platform is a privately held social media entity, that company absolutely has the right to dump you. The only thing that the First Amendment protects you from is the government jailing you for your opinions.

What the 'Twitter Files' brought up is that there needs to be transparency as to who made that call. It's one thing if the company itself made that decision, a much deeper controversy if the federal government privately reaches out to this company and asks them to remove X, Y, and Z accounts for reasons only the federal government knows. That needs open due process decided on by judges, otherwise that's a channel of force that would seem to be a backdoor breach of the 1st amendment.


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Dengashinobi
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12 Feb 2023, 3:13 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
This isn't a spectrum.

Freedom of speech is what a government can retaliate against you for. It's freedom to 'legal speech' (excluding inciting mob violence and stochastic terrorism), most importantly your right to criticize the government without government retaliation.

The later is good social skills and obeying social norms.

That said there will be issues where some have reason to believe that most of society is dangerously wrong on an issue of substantial future impact, they have the right to express the concern / publicly make their case even if it hurts people's feelings but they'd also understand that public blow-back and damage to their reputation among people who won't see it their way is an imputed cost.

Where it gets tricky is if a person raises such a concern and finds out that they're on a hiring black-list across HR departments (for example the HR lady in Canada having her tirade about the truckers, or HR departments, it was a strange rant where it was tricky to tell if her vitriol was at the truckers or the HR profession). Some issues will come up where you then have to see whether people have the right to stab each other's right to income based on politics, and that's an issue that we're really not good at handling yet partially because it's hard to say there's a one-size-fits-all solution and a really unfortunate number of people are perfectly okay with their side doing something but not the opposing side so enforcement also would be tricky.


Excellent analysis as always techstepgenr8tion. Yes a concern of mine is that what people say might affect their ability to make a living. But this question is more of a personal level. Like what you personally think it's better, to speak what you believe is true or to avoid that because it might hurt a person's feelings even if you believe that that person is wrong. I used the term "free speech" for a reason of course.



Dengashinobi
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12 Feb 2023, 3:19 pm

Minder wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
Minder wrote:
If you say things people don't like, don't be surprised if they shun you. They have the right to shun you, just as you have the right to say what you want.

However, I don't think the government should be allowed to legally prosecute you for what you say (though if you are a government employee, you must still abide by the rules of your workplace, which may include limitations of speech and should have been outlined when you started the job).

What I've observed is that many free speech advocates (not all) seem to think that they should be able to speak free of any consequences. But that's just now how it works.


Yes sure, it is what it is. Right now the greatest pressure comes from the wokes but there is also pressure from the conservative camp. I remember when Bernie Sanders run against Hilary, a journalist asked him whether he believed in God and Sanders dodged the question. In short an American president cannot be openly an atheist. Politicians know that. Me for myself I would prefer people to be free to say what they truly believe.


And people are free to say what they truly believe. There is no law stopping you from announcing controversial social or political opinions.

However, if you do, people might not want to talk to you. They might get mad at you and call you names (and they have the right to do this). They might demand that you be de-platformed. And if your platform is a privately held social media entity, that company absolutely has the right to dump you. The only thing that the First Amendment protects you from is the government jailing you for your opinions.


Is that right though? To have your ability to generate an income thwarted for saying what you believe. Is that morally right? Is that a healthy society?



Dengashinobi
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12 Feb 2023, 3:21 pm

DanielW wrote:
you are free to draw anything you like - Doing so may have intended or unintended consequences. You have to decide for your self which is more important to you in a given situation. There isn't an absolute here.


I remind you that people were killed because of such drawings. Is that right?



Minder
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12 Feb 2023, 3:23 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
Minder wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
Minder wrote:
If you say things people don't like, don't be surprised if they shun you. They have the right to shun you, just as you have the right to say what you want.

However, I don't think the government should be allowed to legally prosecute you for what you say (though if you are a government employee, you must still abide by the rules of your workplace, which may include limitations of speech and should have been outlined when you started the job).

What I've observed is that many free speech advocates (not all) seem to think that they should be able to speak free of any consequences. But that's just now how it works.


Yes sure, it is what it is. Right now the greatest pressure comes from the wokes but there is also pressure from the conservative camp. I remember when Bernie Sanders run against Hilary, a journalist asked him whether he believed in God and Sanders dodged the question. In short an American president cannot be openly an atheist. Politicians know that. Me for myself I would prefer people to be free to say what they truly believe.


And people are free to say what they truly believe. There is no law stopping you from announcing controversial social or political opinions.

However, if you do, people might not want to talk to you. They might get mad at you and call you names (and they have the right to do this). They might demand that you be de-platformed. And if your platform is a privately held social media entity, that company absolutely has the right to dump you. The only thing that the First Amendment protects you from is the government jailing you for your opinions.


Is that right though? To have your ability to generate an income thwarted for saying what you believe. Is that morally right? Is that a healthy society?


I can't think of any society where saying controversial things did not result in controversy.