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Honey69
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18 Feb 2023, 3:58 pm

It used to be that Catholics and Protestants were both against contraception, maybe 100 years ago.

Since the leaders of the Catholics, at least in principle, are supposed to remain continent, the Catholic Church is still against contraception.

Protestant leaders can marry, and would prefer not to have huge families. Hence, they've decided that contraception is in their own best interests, and perfectly fine.

The Southern Baptist Convention used to be in favor of abortion. But, from the time of Ronald Reagan, they've turned stridently against abortion.

None of this really cums from the Bible. Just their own person preferences.


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Lecia_Wynter
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18 Feb 2023, 7:22 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
The person you described murdering wasn't occupying your flesh, therefore your bodily autonomy was never under any risk. :?

One always has the right to remove parasites from their flesh, regardless of how they got there and regardless of their species.


Do you hear what you are saying? You are calling human lifeforms parasites. Pregnancy used to be celebrated in culture and look at what it's become. People calling getting pregnant getting parasites, where is the humanity?



techstepgenr8tion
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18 Feb 2023, 8:05 pm

Lecia_Wynter wrote:
Pregnancy used to be celebrated in culture and look at what it's become. People calling getting pregnant getting parasites, where is the humanity?

When we've spent three or four generations in inverted pyramid demographics and most of what we do for work is elder care and looking forward to being single and alone in elder care we're probably not going to be singing from that hymnal as much.


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funeralxempire
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18 Feb 2023, 8:06 pm

Lecia_Wynter wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
The person you described murdering wasn't occupying your flesh, therefore your bodily autonomy was never under any risk. :?

One always has the right to remove parasites from their flesh, regardless of how they got there and regardless of their species.


Do you hear what you are saying? You are calling human lifeforms parasites. Pregnancy used to be celebrated in culture and look at what it's become. People calling getting pregnant getting parasites, where is the humanity?


That's just an appeal to emotion.


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戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


Lecia_Wynter
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18 Feb 2023, 8:58 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Lecia_Wynter wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
The person you described murdering wasn't occupying your flesh, therefore your bodily autonomy was never under any risk. :?

One always has the right to remove parasites from their flesh, regardless of how they got there and regardless of their species.


Do you hear what you are saying? You are calling human lifeforms parasites. Pregnancy used to be celebrated in culture and look at what it's become. People calling getting pregnant getting parasites, where is the humanity?


That's just an appeal to emotion.

No its a cultural argument. We went from calling humans humans and "pregnancy a blessing" to some kind of culture where having human offspring is vewed as a form of parasitism.



funeralxempire
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18 Feb 2023, 9:07 pm

Lecia_Wynter wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Lecia_Wynter wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
The person you described murdering wasn't occupying your flesh, therefore your bodily autonomy was never under any risk. :?

One always has the right to remove parasites from their flesh, regardless of how they got there and regardless of their species.


Do you hear what you are saying? You are calling human lifeforms parasites. Pregnancy used to be celebrated in culture and look at what it's become. People calling getting pregnant getting parasites, where is the humanity?


That's just an appeal to emotion.

No its a cultural argument. We went from calling humans humans and "pregnancy a blessing" to some kind of culture where having human offspring is vewed as a form of parasitism.


You mean it's a problem to recognize that pregnancies aren't always actually a blessing? Should we deny reality on this matter because it conflicts with your preferences?


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"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made... and they won't even admit the knife is there." Malcolm X
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


Lecia_Wynter
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18 Feb 2023, 9:14 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Lecia_Wynter wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Lecia_Wynter wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
The person you described murdering wasn't occupying your flesh, therefore your bodily autonomy was never under any risk. :?

One always has the right to remove parasites from their flesh, regardless of how they got there and regardless of their species.


Do you hear what you are saying? You are calling human lifeforms parasites. Pregnancy used to be celebrated in culture and look at what it's become. People calling getting pregnant getting parasites, where is the humanity?


That's just an appeal to emotion.

No its a cultural argument. We went from calling humans humans and "pregnancy a blessing" to some kind of culture where having human offspring is vewed as a form of parasitism.


You mean it's a problem to recognize that pregnancies aren't always actually a blessing? Should we deny reality on this matter because it conflicts with your preferences?


No that's not what I am saying. I am saying the cultural attitudes have shifted towards a nihilistic way of looking at things. Pregnancy is not "always a blessing" but its a stark contrast from saying your own offspring are merely just parasites. What I am trying to convey is that it sounds like like some harsh brutal alien society from another planet, their primary weapon being plasma and lasers, and all their architecture looks triangular and metallic looking.



funeralxempire
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18 Feb 2023, 9:18 pm

Lecia_Wynter wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Lecia_Wynter wrote:
No its a cultural argument. We went from calling humans humans and "pregnancy a blessing" to some kind of culture where having human offspring is vewed as a form of parasitism.


You mean it's a problem to recognize that pregnancies aren't always actually a blessing? Should we deny reality on this matter because it conflicts with your preferences?


No that's not what I am saying. I am saying the cultural attitudes have shifted towards a nihilistic way of looking at things. Pregnancy is not "always a blessing" but its a stark contrast from saying your own offspring are merely just parasites. What I am trying to convey is that it sounds like like some harsh brutal alien society from another planet, their primary weapon being plasma and lasers, and all their architecture looks triangular and metallic looking.


How would you describe an undesired lifeform occupying and sustaining itself from your flesh?

If it were any species except human there'd be no debate over whether or not it's reasonable to describe such a being as a parasite.
The fact that it's human gives it no rights to continue to use the body upon which it is dependent. Only the owner of the body it's dependent upon is entitled to decide if it is allowed to do so.


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"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made... and they won't even admit the knife is there." Malcolm X
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


Lecia_Wynter
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18 Feb 2023, 9:21 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Lecia_Wynter wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Lecia_Wynter wrote:
No its a cultural argument. We went from calling humans humans and "pregnancy a blessing" to some kind of culture where having human offspring is vewed as a form of parasitism.


You mean it's a problem to recognize that pregnancies aren't always actually a blessing? Should we deny reality on this matter because it conflicts with your preferences?


No that's not what I am saying. I am saying the cultural attitudes have shifted towards a nihilistic way of looking at things. Pregnancy is not "always a blessing" but its a stark contrast from saying your own offspring are merely just parasites. What I am trying to convey is that it sounds like like some harsh brutal alien society from another planet, their primary weapon being plasma and lasers, and all their architecture looks triangular and metallic looking.


How would you describe an undesired lifeform occupying and sustaining itself from your flesh?

If it were any species except human there'd be no debate over whether or not it's reasonable to describe such a being as a parasite.
The fact that it's human gives it no rights to continue to use the body upon which it is dependent. Only the owner of the body it's dependent upon is entitled to decide if it is allowed to do so.


Human pregnacy is unique and animals do not have written language or that type of communication so the comparison is invalid.

Quote:
Only the owner of the body it's dependent upon is entitled to decide if it is allowed to do so.
Sounds too similar to slavery imo.



funeralxempire
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18 Feb 2023, 9:27 pm

Lecia_Wynter wrote:
Human pregnacy is unique and animals do not have written language or that type of communication so the comparison is invalid.


Can you prove human pregnancy is unique or do I just have to accept your word as though it were fact?

Quote:
Sounds too similar to slavery imo.


Forced pregnancy can certainly be counted as slavery. I'm not sure why you'd support it.


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"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made... and they won't even admit the knife is there." Malcolm X
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


Lecia_Wynter
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18 Feb 2023, 9:32 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Lecia_Wynter wrote:
Human pregnacy is unique and animals do not have written language or that type of communication so the comparison is invalid.


Can you prove human pregnancy is unique or do I just have to accept your word as though it were fact?

Other animal species immediately adapt to their environment, their young doesn't require constant maintenance like humans do. Humans require years and years of maintenance. Other animals pretty much are ready soon after they are born. I have never heard of a species like humans that takes as much maintenance.

Quote:
Quote:
Sounds too similar to slavery imo.


Forced pregnancy can certainly be counted as slavery. I'm not sure why you'd support it.

If the sex was consensual then the pregnancy was not forced.



funeralxempire
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18 Feb 2023, 9:41 pm

Lecia_Wynter wrote:
Other animal species immediately adapt to their environment, their young doesn't require constant maintenance like humans do. Humans require years and years of maintenance. Other animals pretty much are ready soon after they are born. I have never heard of a species like humans that takes as much maintenance.


You're correct in observing that humans are at the far-end of the spectrum as far as parental investment goes. This really doesn't make us unique though, we're just a particularly extreme K-selected animal.

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Quote:
Sounds too similar to slavery imo.


Forced pregnancy can certainly be counted as slavery. I'm not sure why you'd support it.

If the sex was consensual then the pregnancy was not forced.[/quote]

Only if one conflates consent to sex with consent to become pregnant, but that's not exactly reasonable - especially if contraceptive measures were taken. If contraception was used that's a pretty obvious sign of non-consent to pregnancy.

Yes, pregnancy is a risk, but we have methods of eliminating that risk, even once it's occurred. :wink:


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"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made... and they won't even admit the knife is there." Malcolm X
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


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19 Feb 2023, 4:32 am

EDITORIAL STATEMENT TO FOLLOW-
every time somebody says they are "pro-life" i question why they then support the death penalty [haven't met a pro-lifer yet who doesn't also support the death penalty in any form]. i also ask them why they vote in lock-step with a party that refuses to apply general taxation to support new mothers, and the gist of what follows is that they refuse to put their money where their mouths are, IOW human life in their view only matters as long as it is in somebody else's womb and their tax dollars aren't involved, which IMHO is just a disguise for their distaste for [the wrong] people having sex for pleasure in the first place.



Lecia_Wynter
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19 Feb 2023, 7:32 am

Quote:
Only if one conflates consent to sex with consent to become pregnant, but that's not exactly reasonable - especially if contraceptive measures were taken. If contraception was used that's a pretty obvious sign of non-consent to pregnancy.

Yes, pregnancy is a risk, but we have methods of eliminating that risk, even once it's occurred

Early abortions before the CNS develops should be legal, any other abortions, illegal. Besides, lots of males should be sterilized anyway, reducing the risk of pregnancy further.


auntblabby wrote:
EDITORIAL STATEMENT TO FOLLOW-
every time somebody says they are "pro-life" i question why they then support the death penalty [haven't met a pro-lifer yet who doesn't also support the death penalty in any form].

That simply doesn't seem true as I've met many people who are anti-abortion and anti-death penalty.

Quote:
i also ask them why they vote in lock-step with a party that refuses to apply general taxation to support new mothers, and the gist of what follows is that they refuse to put their money where their mouths are, IOW human life in their view only matters as long as it is in somebody else's womb and their tax dollars aren't involved,

The Republican party is obsolete and Trump will not even defend 2nd amendment rights.

Quote:
which IMHO is just a disguise for their distaste for [the wrong] people having sex for pleasure in the first place.

It seems a stretch to say the only reason people are anti-abortion is because they are Bible thumpers or jealous incels. Perhaps some people are anti-abortion because its murder and/or don't view the "offspring are parasites" as particularly culturally enriching ideology.



Honey69
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19 Feb 2023, 9:26 am

Lecia_Wynter wrote:
lots of males should be sterilized anyway, reducing the risk of pregnancy further.


You're for compulsory sterilization?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization


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funeralxempire
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19 Feb 2023, 12:02 pm

Lecia_Wynter wrote:
Quote:
Only if one conflates consent to sex with consent to become pregnant, but that's not exactly reasonable - especially if contraceptive measures were taken. If contraception was used that's a pretty obvious sign of non-consent to pregnancy.

Yes, pregnancy is a risk, but we have methods of eliminating that risk, even once it's occurred

Early abortions before the CNS develops should be legal, any other abortions, illegal. Besides, lots of males should be sterilized anyway, reducing the risk of pregnancy further.


It's a good thing society doesn't agree with your preferences.


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"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made... and they won't even admit the knife is there." Malcolm X
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う