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goldfish21
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21 Mar 2023, 8:19 pm

There should be more concern that we no longer own our own national debt and are paying interest to banking cartels on it instead of borrowing interest free from ourselves for infrastructure projects. This bs changed in Canada in the 1970’s under trudeau sr. What a crock of s**t.


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RandoNLD
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22 Mar 2023, 1:41 am

I never said the establishment of NASDAQ caused the economic dysfunction in '71 and neither did anyone else mentioning developments in microelectronics circa '71.



Dengashinobi
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22 Mar 2023, 9:01 am

stratozyck wrote:

Yeah all thats fine but my original point was fiat currency isn't the cause of all these things. People who repeat "fiat currency" are tin foil hat types.

The Great Depression of 1929-? (depending on when you want to call it the end) was made worse because at that time, monetary policy tightened in a recession.

If we had non fiat currency, that would happen again. Every recession, gold prices go up - so that would mean in a recession we'd be hit with even more deflation. Deflation is the opposite what you want in a recession.

I'll say it again - people who obsess about fiat currency are not to be taken seriously.


"Tin foil hat types" is a strong statement for somebody who defends pseudoscientific Keynesianism.

First of all the gold standard has enjoyed support from important economists throughout the years. Jacques Rueff the leading economist behind France's post-war economic growth, was a major proponent of the gold standard. Not the gold exchange standard but the classical pre-war gold standard. In fact what kickstarted the abandonment of the Bretton Woods System was precisely France's decision to exchange it's dollars for gold. The cutting of ties of the dollar to gold was introduced in order to protect dollar from depreciation and it's fall from the prominent role as an international exchange currerency. It was an arbitrary move by which the U.S. asserted itself as the world's superpower.

The gold exchange standard was not removed because the price of Gold went up in case of recession, it was moved because of dirty politics.

Also you are yet to provide a better alternative that would explain the drastic changes that occurred exactly in 1971.



The_Walrus
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23 Mar 2023, 10:05 am

stratozyck wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
To stratozyck: You didn't mention anything having to do with real estate. Seems to me that that's a big contributing factor.

The 1950's and 1960's were the era of the "Great Migration" of African-Americans from the South to various northern cities. A lot of urban white people panicked and sold their houses, thereby driving down urban property values. These white folks then bought houses in the suburbs, which were also cheap at that time because the suburbs were new.

Then, in the 1970's, when the white baby boomers grew up and decided to be less racist than their parents, a lot of them moved into the city to be nearer to their jobs and/or universities. This was the end of "white flight" and the beginning of gentrification.

Eventually the presence of more and more young white people made the cities more attractive to more and more rich people too, including (at least here in NYC) a lot of rich foreigners, resulting in more and more gentrification, worsened by zoning laws.

Seems to me that this is the single biggest economic problem we face.

IMO the most important things we need are: (1) a loosening of zoning laws and (2) higher taxes on luxury properties and on properties that are unoccupied for most of the year.

To stratozyck: What do you think about the above?


Yeah all thats fine but my original point was fiat currency isn't the cause of all these things. People who repeat "fiat currency" are tin foil hat types.

The Great Depression of 1929-? (depending on when you want to call it the end) was made worse because at that time, monetary policy tightened in a recession.

If we had non fiat currency, that would happen again. Every recession, gold prices go up - so that would mean in a recession we'd be hit with even more deflation. Deflation is the opposite what you want in a recession.

I'll say it again - people who obsess about fiat currency are not to be taken seriously.

As insightful as ever. Completely agreed.



stratozyck
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25 Mar 2023, 11:39 pm

Dengashinobi wrote:
stratozyck wrote:

Yeah all thats fine but my original point was fiat currency isn't the cause of all these things. People who repeat "fiat currency" are tin foil hat types.

The Great Depression of 1929-? (depending on when you want to call it the end) was made worse because at that time, monetary policy tightened in a recession.

If we had non fiat currency, that would happen again. Every recession, gold prices go up - so that would mean in a recession we'd be hit with even more deflation. Deflation is the opposite what you want in a recession.

I'll say it again - people who obsess about fiat currency are not to be taken seriously.


"Tin foil hat types" is a strong statement for somebody who defends pseudoscientific Keynesianism.

First of all the gold standard has enjoyed support from important economists throughout the years. Jacques Rueff the leading economist behind France's post-war economic growth, was a major proponent of the gold standard. Not the gold exchange standard but the classical pre-war gold standard. In fact what kickstarted the abandonment of the Bretton Woods System was precisely France's decision to exchange it's dollars for gold. The cutting of ties of the dollar to gold was introduced in order to protect dollar from depreciation and it's fall from the prominent role as an international exchange currerency. It was an arbitrary move by which the U.S. asserted itself as the world's superpower.

The gold exchange standard was not removed because the price of Gold went up in case of recession, it was moved because of dirty politics.

Also you are yet to provide a better alternative that would explain the drastic changes that occurred exactly in 1971.


Well sure anything sounds "pseudoscientific" if you put that word in front of it.

If we have a gold based currency, in recessions we will get tighter monetary policy because gold prices go up in recessions. Result: recession made much worse.

Everyone is Keynesian now. Its not really up for debate. We had a natural experiment in 2008-2009. Europe went with "austerity" and the US went with deficit spending. The result was that the US recovered quicker while Europe took longer.

The problem with Keynesianism is that politicians hear the "borrow money and deficit spend" part but not the "raise taxes and run surplus" part. You don't even have to really run surpluses, its just grow the debt slower than GDP growth.

If you are going to just throw out attacks on it, you have to be more specific in what you are attacking because otherwise it just sounds like a drunk trying to attack everyone in the bar. What, specifically, do you disagree with regarding Keynesianism? I can't really address it if you talk like you do. It sounds confident which appeals to a lot of people - but it also sounds like you can't articulate what specifically you are saying is wrong, which leads me to believe you are instead getting your info on it from right wing sources.



Dengashinobi
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03 Apr 2023, 4:11 pm

stratozyck wrote:
Dengashinobi wrote:
stratozyck wrote:

Yeah all thats fine but my original point was fiat currency isn't the cause of all these things. People who repeat "fiat currency" are tin foil hat types.

The Great Depression of 1929-? (depending on when you want to call it the end) was made worse because at that time, monetary policy tightened in a recession.

If we had non fiat currency, that would happen again. Every recession, gold prices go up - so that would mean in a recession we'd be hit with even more deflation. Deflation is the opposite what you want in a recession.

I'll say it again - people who obsess about fiat currency are not to be taken seriously.


"Tin foil hat types" is a strong statement for somebody who defends pseudoscientific Keynesianism.

First of all the gold standard has enjoyed support from important economists throughout the years. Jacques Rueff the leading economist behind France's post-war economic growth, was a major proponent of the gold standard. Not the gold exchange standard but the classical pre-war gold standard. In fact what kickstarted the abandonment of the Bretton Woods System was precisely France's decision to exchange it's dollars for gold. The cutting of ties of the dollar to gold was introduced in order to protect dollar from depreciation and it's fall from the prominent role as an international exchange currerency. It was an arbitrary move by which the U.S. asserted itself as the world's superpower.

The gold exchange standard was not removed because the price of Gold went up in case of recession, it was moved because of dirty politics.

Also you are yet to provide a better alternative that would explain the drastic changes that occurred exactly in 1971.


Well sure anything sounds "pseudoscientific" if you put that word in front of it.

If we have a gold based currency, in recessions we will get tighter monetary policy because gold prices go up in recessions. Result: recession made much worse.

Everyone is Keynesian now. Its not really up for debate. We had a natural experiment in 2008-2009. Europe went with "austerity" and the US went with deficit spending. The result was that the US recovered quicker while Europe took longer.

The problem with Keynesianism is that politicians hear the "borrow money and deficit spend" part but not the "raise taxes and run surplus" part. You don't even have to really run surpluses, its just grow the debt slower than GDP growth.

If you are going to just throw out attacks on it, you have to be more specific in what you are attacking because otherwise it just sounds like a drunk trying to attack everyone in the bar. What, specifically, do you disagree with regarding Keynesianism? I can't really address it if you talk like you do. It sounds confident which appeals to a lot of people - but it also sounds like you can't articulate what specifically you are saying is wrong, which leads me to believe you are instead getting your info on it from right wing sources.


Nothing makes sense in Keynes assumptions. They are nonsensical like Keynes criticism of Say's law that "supply creates it's own demand". Which means that "demand creates it's own supply" according to Keynes. It's nonsensical since in order to demand goods one has to supply. In short first you work and then with the money you get from your labor, you buy goods and services. That leads to the Keynesian idea of government deficit spending in order to stimulate demand. The government demands goods and services which in turn generate further demand for goods and services from the people that have supplied the government with goods and services and so on, thus stimulating the economy. The question is though, what did the government supply in order to demand those goods and services. Nothing was produced by the government. But the government did not gather the resources in order to satisfy its demand out of thin air. Instead the government either is spending money that it has from taxes or it's spending money it doesn't have by borrowing money. In the case of the former, it's just allocating part of the aggregate supply. But that's pointless since that aggregate supply was already there creating it's own aggregate demand. In the case of borrowing money it's also the same. The government is borrowing part of the aggregate demand that was already there to begin with and allocating it. That's beating the air.

Also Keynes assumed that it was the market's production of unemployment that caused recession. His reasoning was stickiness of prices, of wages specifically. That workers would refuse to work for less. More specifically when the money wage exceeded real wage. His solution to that problem was inflation. Inflation would constantly devalue money wages not letting them exceed real wages. Devaluing the entire currency in order to adjust temporarily exceeding money wages it's like adjusting the piano to the stool instead of adjusting the stool to the piano. First of all there is no reason to assume that workers will not accept their money wages being decreased to the level of real wages. Except if you have cartels like workers unions which should be illegal like all other cartels.

In short Keynes success was due to the fact that he was telling politicians that they can actually spend as much as possible, giving money to their cronies and to the special interest groups that would vote them to power, while at the same time actually helping the economy. How convenient. It was a God sent gift for politicians. Keynesianism is the main ideological driving force behind modern liberalism and it's social engineering impulses.
He admitted himself that his economics are better suited for totalitarian systems. This is who you are liberals.