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ASPartOfMe
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19 May 2023, 12:39 pm

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Yeeeeah it’s pretty fucky living next door watching some people in your country doing their damnedest to destroy it from within & then do why exactly I dunno, pray to the orange guy ? Hand it over to putin’s russia ? Certainly some pretty weird ass s**t.

And older wiser men than either of us have grave concerns for what they’re observing too - Noam Chomsky comes to mind..

One difference between and the reason I think you are more optimistic then me is that you see the problem mainly from one side thus defeat or contain them and recovery can commence. When like me you see an existential threats coming from both sides it makes it tougher. I know that one sides loss is another's gain. That is not always true but that is not where we are now.


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19 May 2023, 12:50 pm

..except there’s only one side literally trying to destroy & dismantle the USA and it’s system of government -> the trumplicans.

So besides that, yes, both sides are trying to destroy the USA lol


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19 May 2023, 4:14 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
..except there’s only one side literally trying to destroy & dismantle the USA and it’s system of government -> the trumplicans.

So besides that, yes, both sides are trying to destroy the USA lol

Not true.

There is one side dismantling the government that actually thinks they are patriots protecting the constitution.

The “woke” part of the left is quite open that America has been a systematically racist from the get go and needs to be torn down and rebuilt. Instead of storming the capital and hijacking a party they do it through smart redefining of language, and use elite prep schools where the future political, cooperate, and cultural leaders are going to come from.

A valid argument can be made MAGA’s are more dangerous, have the wokes on their heels at the moment. I can’t argue with that. One logical choice is the friend of my enemy is my friend, destroy the MAGA’s first worry about then extremists on our side later, or just ignore them they are fringe attention seekers. That might work, going to Stalin against Hitler did.

About ten tears ago I thought the people we call MAGA’s were fringe people living in their parents basement. Most progressives believed that, so did people they now call RINO’s, how did that work out? When they first started with the people they called SJW’s my first impression was it’s college thing they will grow up, something to be amused by, nothing to be concerned about. I remember having this conversion with you, walk out in the middle if the school day to protest, let them try that on the job. I again underestimated that one, it’s the mainstream thing to do now, the owner of the company often organizes the protest. Let’s go back to November 2020 in the wake of the murder of George Floyd, statues down, racism and privilege redefined. The only possible reason to oppose BLM or “antiracism” was because you a racist and you were pathetic fighting against inevitable progress. The Saturday the election was called for Biden people were out in the streets celebrating. I was the party pooper, saying we are entering the most dangerous period. Let’s say I was not well received. I had learned my lesson, unfortunately I was correct on that one. Fast forward to the following February, the insurrection had failed, Trump had been forced off social media, all these planned local and state “insurrections” ended up being a handful of people. If the MAGA’s looked like relics in November now, oh boy. That did not work out either, today they control one house of congress, they are passing all sorts of state and local authoritarian invasive laws.

I do realize that plenty of times what seems like the Hitler or Mao is the next fad. It is hard to tell. Sometimes a choice works and other times the same choice makes things worse.

Pretty much everyone outside of the MAGA’s even their enablers understand the threat they pose. With exceptions, the same is not true for “woke” with progressives. This is because a combination of
1. As I mentioned before the threat from the MAGA’s is so great, such an emergency that the illiberal elements have to be allied with.

2. Misunderstanding of what the illiberal elements of the progressive movement are about because of their use of language is hard to oppose, decent people do think racism, privilege and calling gay and trans people groomers or sheep that have been groomed are bad things.

3. They have been radicalized by all the police abuse videos, the insurrection, the government telling their friends what pronoun they have to identify as etc.

4. You can’t oppose illiberalism if you don’t know what it is because you have never been taught(this most certainly is a problem with the right also).

The end result is that the danger from the “woke” elements of the left are downplayed, ignored, and thought of as something that only hardcore bigots, bullies, and dumb sheep to right wing propaganda worry about. I will look foolish but I hope that those downplaying “woke” are right because if not most of us in the long term will end up being sorry.


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19 May 2023, 4:54 pm

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Oh yes, the very same danger the FBI has been warning about coming from far right wing white nationalists since 2006 is coming from acknowledging actual American history which includes slavery, segregation, systemic racism, as well as overt racism by police & citizens up to and including lynchings in modern day.. combined with not only tolerance, but acceptance, of LGBT people and omfg the Democrat party is trying to tear down and destroy America and all of its traditional hateful values embraced by the good ol’ boys still flying the losers’ confederate flag.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


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19 May 2023, 5:33 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Oh yes, the very same danger the FBI has been warning about coming from far right wing white nationalists since 2006 is coming from acknowledging actual American history which includes slavery, segregation, systemic racism, as well as overt racism by police & citizens up to and including lynchings in modern day.. combined with not only tolerance, but acceptance, of LGBT people and omfg the Democrat party is trying to tear down and destroy America and all of its traditional hateful values embraced by the good ol’ boys still flying the losers’ confederate flag.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I am not talking about the Democratic Party but the “woke” element of the progressive movement. I never said a thing about the Democratic party in my post. The Democratic Party is not trying to tear the country down, as the elite establishment why would they? It has changed somewhat but I do put them in the group that is too dismissive of “wokeism”.


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19 May 2023, 5:49 pm

Mmhmm, best not to take yer eyes off those kind hearted young people seeking to make the country & world a better place.. can't have that! Best to make sure we carry on real traditions like racism, hate, homophobia, transphobia, classism, white supremacy - all the things that REALLY make 'merica, 'merica.. none of this baseball, apple pie, and being nice to each other like Jesus preached BS!!

:roll: :lol:

As for Democrats being the "elite," there are plenty of educated wealthy republicans in the USA too. Not sure how you figure it's appropriate to point fingers at the heads of the Democrat party as "the elite," to be wary of. Very strange considering the number of pro-republican Billionaires that were all for trumplestiltskin.. because they couldn't have possibly cared less who he hurt amongst the plebs so long as they got their $2 Trillion tax cut. I'd be much more concerned about those elites - the republican backing ultra wealthy who continue to grow their fortunes at the misfortune of the working class poor who are without proper food/shelter/clothing/medicine, healthcare, and education.


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19 May 2023, 6:16 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Mmhmm, best not to take yer eyes off those kind hearted young people seeking to make the country & world a better place.. can't have that! Best to make sure we carry on real traditions like racism, hate, homophobia, transphobia, classism, white supremacy - all the things that REALLY make 'merica, 'merica.. none of this baseball, apple pie, and being nice to each other like Jesus preached BS!!
If facts, truth, and reason will not work to change the minds of those who worship Trump, then blatant snark and sarcasm will likely not work either.

Maybe it is better to disengage from the magaheads entirely while silently monitoring their activities.  Sooner or later, each one seems to step over the line and say or do something really stupid that gets them in trouble.


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19 May 2023, 8:40 pm

:chin:


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19 May 2023, 10:16 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Mmhmm, best not to take yer eyes off those kind hearted young people seeking to make the country & world a better place.. can't have that! Best to make sure we carry on real traditions like racism, hate, homophobia, transphobia, classism, white supremacy - all the things that REALLY make 'merica, 'merica.. none of this baseball, apple pie, and being nice to each other like Jesus preached BS!!

:roll: :lol:

As for Democrats being the "elite," there are plenty of educated wealthy republicans in the USA too. Not sure how you figure it's appropriate to point fingers at the heads of the Democrat party as "the elite," to be wary of. Very strange considering the number of pro-republican Billionaires that were all for trumplestiltskin.. because they couldn't have possibly cared less who he hurt amongst the plebs so long as they got their $2 Trillion tax cut. I'd be much more concerned about those elites - the republican backing ultra wealthy who continue to grow their fortunes at the misfortune of the working class poor who are without proper food/shelter/clothing/medicine, healthcare, and education.


About eliteism
Ignore Trump’s war chest: Democrats are soaring past Republicans in fundraising

Here's how. much more cash Senate Candidates have then their Republican opponents

Have Democrats Become the Party of the Rich?
Quote:
Some recent US figures on the distribution of income by party: 65 percent of taxpayer households that earn more than $500,000 per year are now in Democratic districts; 74 percent of the households in Republican districts earn less than $100,00 per year. Add to this what we knew already, namely that the 10 richest congressional districts in the country all have Democratic representatives in Congress. The above numbers incidentally come from the Internal Revenue Service, via Bloomberg, and are likely to be more reliable than if they came from Project Veritas via theblaze.com.


But elitism is more than about money, it is about controlling the cultural narrative. With exceptions music, art, movies reflect progressive sensitives. A conservative such as James Woods is an outlier in Hollywood.

It is about which companies have a cool, trendy image. It's not Republican Big Oil, but companies such as google,
Apple, Nike.

"kind hearted young people seeking to make the country & world a better place". I am supposed to be the old out of touch person in this conversation. What you are describing were the 1960s hippies. Kind hearted people don't go around no platforming people who disagree with them, describing people they only know from a video as a Karen.


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19 May 2023, 10:44 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Mmhmm, best not to take yer eyes off those kind hearted young people seeking to make the country & world a better place.. can't have that! Best to make sure we carry on real traditions like racism, hate, homophobia, transphobia, classism, white supremacy - all the things that REALLY make 'merica, 'merica.. none of this baseball, apple pie, and being nice to each other like Jesus preached BS!!

:roll: :lol:

As for Democrats being the "elite," there are plenty of educated wealthy republicans in the USA too. Not sure how you figure it's appropriate to point fingers at the heads of the Democrat party as "the elite," to be wary of. Very strange considering the number of pro-republican Billionaires that were all for trumplestiltskin.. because they couldn't have possibly cared less who he hurt amongst the plebs so long as they got their $2 Trillion tax cut. I'd be much more concerned about those elites - the republican backing ultra wealthy who continue to grow their fortunes at the misfortune of the working class poor who are without proper food/shelter/clothing/medicine, healthcare, and education.


About eliteism
Ignore Trump’s war chest: Democrats are soaring past Republicans in fundraising

Here's how. much more cash Senate Candidates have then their Republican opponents

Have Democrats Become the Party of the Rich?
Quote:
Some recent US figures on the distribution of income by party: 65 percent of taxpayer households that earn more than $500,000 per year are now in Democratic districts; 74 percent of the households in Republican districts earn less than $100,00 per year. Add to this what we knew already, namely that the 10 richest congressional districts in the country all have Democratic representatives in Congress. The above numbers incidentally come from the Internal Revenue Service, via Bloomberg, and are likely to be more reliable than if they came from Project Veritas via theblaze.com.


But elitism is more than about money, it is about controlling the cultural narrative. With exceptions music, art, movies reflect progressive sensitives. A conservative such as James Woods is an outlier in Hollywood.

It is about which companies have a cool, trendy image. It's not Republican Big Oil, but companies such as google,
Apple, Nike.

"kind hearted young people seeking to make the country & world a better place". I am supposed to be the old out of touch person in this conversation. What you are describing were the 1960s hippies. Kind hearted people don't go around no platforming people who disagree with them, describing people they only know from a video as a Karen.


Of course democratic candidates are fundraising more money; everyone’s scared s**tless of the damage a second trumplestiltskin/maga republican term would do. Those guys are nuts.

Of course democrat voting areas are wealthier. Vibrant port cities full of immigrants who come to work professionally or study + higher education levels etc.

And of course th e vast majority of republican voting households earn less than $100k/year. republicans have marketed themselves to the lowly educated working poor. Why would you expect anything different? :?

republicans specifically carve out their extremely gerrymandered districts to include as many of these angry ignorant folks as they can so that all they have to do is stir the culture war pot with some nonsense attacks on trans people or some other marginalized group.. or literate people as they ban books etc etc in order to earn their angry votes.

This isn’t the fault of democrat elites. It’s entirely be design, by the republican party, leadership including trump himself, the rnc, cpac, various republican super pacs & mega donors etc etc. They’ve specifically catered to those voters On Purpose because they’re easy targets to convince to vote for these bunch of bullshitters that have Zero intentions of actually doing a damned thing to benefit those that elect them.

Education? Nope. Healthcare? Nope. Better wages? Nope. Lower taxes? Nope. And so on and so on - just crony capitalism for the old boys club & the military industrial complex with a few trump rallies to stoke fear of others and distract people from things that actually matter to anyone.

Big oil needs to die the world over. That science. Big oil has known for 50 years how bad they’re screwing the whole planet. Why should big oil get some kind of favouritism from anyone anywhere? If tech companies are the present and future, especially if they can help solve real problems, then sure, give them a little love.

Mmhmm, no platforming people.. you mean like the political right is freaking out about the CEO of Anheuser Busch because a trans woman was in a beer promo? Like that?


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20 May 2023, 12:29 am

goldfish21 wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Mmhmm, best not to take yer eyes off those kind hearted young people seeking to make the country & world a better place.. can't have that! Best to make sure we carry on real traditions like racism, hate, homophobia, transphobia, classism, white supremacy - all the things that REALLY make 'merica, 'merica.. none of this baseball, apple pie, and being nice to each other like Jesus preached BS!!

:roll: :lol:

As for Democrats being the "elite," there are plenty of educated wealthy republicans in the USA too. Not sure how you figure it's appropriate to point fingers at the heads of the Democrat party as "the elite," to be wary of. Very strange considering the number of pro-republican Billionaires that were all for trumplestiltskin.. because they couldn't have possibly cared less who he hurt amongst the plebs so long as they got their $2 Trillion tax cut. I'd be much more concerned about those elites - the republican backing ultra wealthy who continue to grow their fortunes at the misfortune of the working class poor who are without proper food/shelter/clothing/medicine, healthcare, and education.


About eliteism
Ignore Trump’s war chest: Democrats are soaring past Republicans in fundraising

Here's how. much more cash Senate Candidates have then their Republican opponents

Have Democrats Become the Party of the Rich?
Quote:
Some recent US figures on the distribution of income by party: 65 percent of taxpayer households that earn more than $500,000 per year are now in Democratic districts; 74 percent of the households in Republican districts earn less than $100,00 per year. Add to this what we knew already, namely that the 10 richest congressional districts in the country all have Democratic representatives in Congress. The above numbers incidentally come from the Internal Revenue Service, via Bloomberg, and are likely to be more reliable than if they came from Project Veritas via theblaze.com.


But elitism is more than about money, it is about controlling the cultural narrative. With exceptions music, art, movies reflect progressive sensitives. A conservative such as James Woods is an outlier in Hollywood.

It is about which companies have a cool, trendy image. It's not Republican Big Oil, but companies such as google,
Apple, Nike.

"kind hearted young people seeking to make the country & world a better place". I am supposed to be the old out of touch person in this conversation. What you are describing were the 1960s hippies. Kind hearted people don't go around no platforming people who disagree with them, describing people they only know from a video as a Karen.


Of course democratic candidates are fundraising more money; everyone’s scared s**tless of the damage a second trumplestiltskin/maga republican term would do. Those guys are nuts.

Of course democrat voting areas are wealthier. Vibrant port cities full of immigrants who come to work professionally or study + higher education levels etc.

And of course th e vast majority of republican voting households earn less than $100k/year. republicans have marketed themselves to the lowly educated working poor. Why would you expect anything different? :?

republicans specifically carve out their extremely gerrymandered districts to include as many of these angry ignorant folks as they can so that all they have to do is stir the culture war pot with some nonsense attacks on trans people or some other marginalized group.. or literate people as they ban books etc etc in order to earn their angry votes.

This isn’t the fault of democrat elites. It’s entirely be design, by the republican party, leadership including trump himself, the rnc, cpac, various republican super pacs & mega donors etc etc. They’ve specifically catered to those voters On Purpose because they’re easy targets to convince to vote for these bunch of bullshitters that have Zero intentions of actually doing a damned thing to benefit those that elect them.

Education? Nope. Healthcare? Nope. Better wages? Nope. Lower taxes? Nope. And so on and so on - just crony capitalism for the old boys club & the military industrial complex with a few trump rallies to stoke fear of others and distract people from things that actually matter to anyone.

Big oil needs to die the world over. That science. Big oil has known for 50 years how bad they’re screwing the whole planet. Why should big oil get some kind of favouritism from anyone anywhere? If tech companies are the present and future, especially if they can help solve real problems, then sure, give them a little love.

Mmhmm, no platforming people.. you mean like the political right is freaking out about the CEO of Anheuser Busch because a trans woman was in a beer promo? Like that?

Oh the trend of big money to the Democrats began before Trump not so much over over things like religious fundamentalism and the Dem trend towards Capitalism under Clinton.

"Mmhmm, no platforming people.. you mean like the political right is freaking out about the CEO of Anheuser Busch because a trans woman was in a beer promo? Like that?". Yes like that, something I was onto 2 years ago
Conservative And Right Wing Cancel Culture
As I wrote in my OP "We have been ranting about woke cancel culture a lot here lately, a lot of it from me. They did not invent this. It was the conservatives that wrote the book. All the wokes have done is written the updated edition."

That was two years ago now the the Conservatives have written an updated edition to that book.
Ron DeSantis’s Illiberal Education Crusade
The sub headline to the column I posted in that threads OP is relevant to this conversation "Florida’s “anti-woke” power grabs in K-12 and public universities should be opposed—but not by defending progressive illiberalism."


This part of the thread was me disagreeing with your description of "kind hearted" progressives. I don't remember ever describing MAGA's as kind hearted.


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20 May 2023, 12:57 am

Generally speaking, people have to be fairly kind hearted in order to make societal progress towards the eventual goal of having a Star Trek like society of people all on even, respectful, playing fields with one another. Sooo progressives, by the very nature of people progressing human & civil rights, tend to be kind hearted people. Much more so than people opposed to progress for the sake of marginalizing or othering people in a stupid game of "push down, pop up," to make themselves feel superior over whoever they view as lesser.


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20 May 2023, 1:21 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
for the sake of marginalizing or othering people in a stupid game of "push down, pop up," to make themselves feel superior over whoever they view as lesser.

And how is this different from the wokes exactly?


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20 May 2023, 1:33 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
for the sake of marginalizing or othering people in a stupid game of "push down, pop up," to make themselves feel superior over whoever they view as lesser.

And how is this different from the wokes exactly?

Are you unfamiliar with the term "equality," and what it means ? :? The whole idea is for people to all be on an even level, without anyone marginalized or oppressed for their race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability or other factors. All of the sorts of things protected under Human Rights Codes.

Can't exactly have lessers and superiors when everyone is helped up to the same level vs. held back or down by some.


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20 May 2023, 2:35 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
for the sake of marginalizing or othering people in a stupid game of "push down, pop up," to make themselves feel superior over whoever they view as lesser.

And how is this different from the wokes exactly?

Are you unfamiliar with the term "equality," and what it means ? :? The whole idea is for people to all be on an even level, without anyone marginalized or oppressed for their race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability or other factors. All of the sorts of things protected under Human Rights Codes.

Can't exactly have lessers and superiors when everyone is helped up to the same level vs. held back or down by some.

Non Progressives are either stupid morons or bamboozled sheep. Uncouth people who shop at Wallmart, and george at McDonald's. Whites are automatically privileged. If they would listen to us enlightened people and spend all-day understanding their privileges and stop watching faux news and read and watch unbiased sources like MSNBC, and CNN, and the New York Times they might be redeemed.

We believe supremacist beliefs are bad.


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20 May 2023, 2:59 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Non Progressives are either stupid morons or bamboozled sheep. Uncouth people who shop at Wallmart, and george at McDonald's. Whites are automatically privileged. If they would listen to us enlightened people and spend all-day understanding their privileges and stop watching faux news and read and watch unbiased sources like MSNBC, and CNN, and the New York Times they might be redeemed.

We believe supremacist beliefs are bad.


I'm pretty sure plenty of 'woke' people shop at Walmart and gorge on McDonald's too. That just sounds like how rich people stereotype poor people.

Beyond that, it's largely complaining that more educated people wish less educated people would seek information and weigh facts similarly to them.

While 'woke' opinions might be more popular among better educated people to a degree, it's not as though they're limited to them, they're often not even a product of them, for the most part. A lot of 'woke' opinions are informed by activists from different communities and their commentary.

Often highly educated elites only buy into them after they reach a critical mass of support in other spheres, which means like always, they're just serving as curators for what falls within the Overton window.

Wealthy and highly educated elites look down on the rest of us, they've been doing this since long before 'woke' was a relevant term outside of black communities.


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