Colorado schools to promote communism! Developing story

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naturalplastic
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06 May 2023, 5:37 pm

What Americans call "socialist" are countries much like the US which, like the US, have a mixed economies, but which have a little more government ownership in the mix than the US has (like Canada, the UK, Norway).

The pre 1990 pure government run economies of China and Russia and et al were called "Communist" in the US. But the countries themselves called themselves "socialist".

"Communism" was a future utopian state (a classless and governmentless society) that these countries professed to be aiming to get to- and get to through a "dictatorship of the working class".

Marx envisioned his extreme socialism-to-achieve-communism to take root in advanced western countries like the US or western europe. Instead Communism got put on the map in Russia and in the third world were advanced capitalism hadnt even taken root yet.

Today (in the post 1990 world) we have the paradox that some "communist" regimes like Vietnam and China have bareknuckled capitalist exploitation of workers similar to that of the West in the 19th Century so that they can...back track in history- so they can create an industrial revolution in order to have the advanced society that Marx said -would be ripe for a Communist revolution...that they jumped the gun (according to Marx) and already had when they were still at the unripe stage (according to Marx) in the 20th Century. :lol:



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06 May 2023, 9:19 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Honey69 wrote:
From the Book of Acts

Quote:

All the believers continued together in close fellowship and shared their belongings with one another. They would sell their property and possessions, and distribute the money among all, according to what each one needed. Day after day they met as a group in the Temple, and they had their meals together in their homes, eating with glad and humble hearts...

...The group of believers was one in mind and heart. None of them said that any of their belongings were their own, but they all shared with one another everything they had. With great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and God poured rich blessings on them all. There was no one in the group who was in need. Those who owned fields or houses would sell them, bring the money received from the sale, and turn it over to the apostles; and the money was distributed according to the needs of the people...



So jesus was a communist... :lol:
That is probably why he was killed for being too progressive for his time, not because of the cultish belief he was the son of god.

Had nothing to do with it.

Don’t forget, the church described in Acts was a colossal failure. Ananias and Saphyra were parasites and a danger to the early church. They didn’t deserve to live. When other believers realized the seriousness of committing to such a lifestyle, many avoided joining or left completely.

The church mentioned in Acts was a fellowship of believers who did those things WILLINGLY. They weren’t forced or coerced into it.

That’s the problem of communism. Monarchists can’t choose to still be monarchists. There is no reward for achievement because achievement means you did something better than someone else or you did something nobody else did. You’re not allowed to be good at something because that would be unfair to, say, someone who is disabled. You’re not allowed to have more personal property than someone else unless EVERYONE can have more personal property. Actually, there’s no such thing as personal property, but the government has the ability to redistribute wealth based on what is available. And these are only the PROMISES of communism. The reality is that the military and academic elites are in charge of ruling, making their wealth on the backs of the workers. The workers cannot be allowed the luxury of wealth since having it means living free of oppression. The poor underclass must always REMAIN the underclass in order to maintain a revolutionary government and preserve communist power structures.

Christians in the early church at least had the right to leave. Under communism, everyone is (only) free to make the same choice.


Ok so he at least was into the idea of smaller communes. I can agree communism would not work on a large scale, hence why I am not a communist.

That said though it's the same thing you say with capitalism, workers cannot be allowed the luxury of wealth to maintain capitalist power structures.

Not quite. Under capitalism power structures center on the individual. There's basically no power structures aside from what an individual creates within his own organization. It's based on his values and assumes that those values are shared by those he chooses to bring into the organization. It's a relationship based on mutual benefit, and everyone who chooses to participate accepts that structure as-is.

Communism depends on power structures that members of the collective are born into. In Soviet Russia, this power structure was claimed to be monarchism. And once monarchism was gone, it was capitalism under which it was claimed that greedy business owners kept the means of production for themselves, permanently oppressing the poor, working underclass. IIRC, monarchism and capitalism lived under the same roof, but in reality monarchist states own the means of production, i.e. the monarchy controls it and can transfer it to who they like. At any rate, workers don't have rights. Once capitalism was gone together with the monarchy, poor people stayed poor. But their poverty was blamed on lingering capitalist elements within the Soviet bureaucracy. The Soviet government had routine purges as a way of showing that the leadership was doing their part to make sure greedy capitalists could never keep control. Some citizens made use of bribes in order to survive, but the bureaucracy by its nature created Holodomor among other unfortunate things. Holodomor was caused when farmers were denied access to the grain they grew because of quota requirements demanded by Russia. This led to a man-made famine which killed many Ukrainians--and if you ever wonder about the animosity between Ukraine and Russia, this was just the beginning.

In the United States, power structures exist when the government selectively supports some businesses. Government Motors is one example. There's also the relentless propping of the fossil fuel industry and internal combustion engine manufacturers. And it's both parties. Electric vehicles threaten car manufacturers, meaning potential job loss along with automotive unions withdrawing support for the Democratic Party. Replacing the oil industry would cost a number of jobs, also, and result in the loss of Republican voters.

There's plenty of room for innovation and better electric vehicles that would be cheaper and have less impact on the environment. I wish someone would take serious steps towards breaking our dependence on electricity--what with quantum mechanics and the discovery of exotic subatomic particles, surely there is something more powerful and efficient than electricity, right??? But again...there's too much for politicians to lose if anything threatens special interest groups, and government has been most active in restricting the development of new technologies.

I know Elon Musk isn't exactly everyone's hero around here, but I like his spirit and am somewhat a fan. I admire that he can live somewhat above the influence and use his own resources to invest in electric vehicles. And he doesn't need the government to build rockets. The government needs him a lot more than he needs the government. The government, btw, has made every effort to block advances in our space program. So people like Musk also have my admiration because they show that dependence on government agencies for things like space travel are entirely subjective, just another way to discourage people with great ideas from coming forward and exploring whether or not they would succeed. NASA is no longer the prestigious agency it once was, and that might be for the best. But individuals working independently to achieve things they love is what capitalism is really about, and the USA hasn't been a capitalist state in well over 100 years.

Sweetleaf wrote:
Why do you think there is so much effort to divide the poor so they fight against each other than the real problem.

That's...something communism does, actually. Individual achievers under capitalism can't be bothered with what people think about them. Capitalists have no reason to divide anyone or fight anyone. Socialist/Communist governments, however, love division. It means there's never a shortage of an "other" who can be blamed for all the ills of the nation. Without an oppressor together with a permanent underclass, there is no revolution.


Sweetleaf wrote:
In communism they use the lie that you are working for a great cause by being exploited to keep up morale. In capitalism they focus on encouraging the poor to get into a lot of in-fighting about race, sex, gender rights, religion ect to make it harder for them to stand together against the wealthy billionaires who are exploiting us all and influencing the government far too much.

Not really.

But I do agree that the government and corporations cannot have a healthy relationship together, certainly not a relationships that results in meeting the best interests of citizens. The American auto industry has long outlived its usefulness. It should have been left to fend for itself in the Great Recession. Those bailouts were one of the biggest mistakes in recent history.

If Government Motors had been forced to deal with their problems on their own, they'd have come out stronger for learning from their mistakes. Instead, they taught people if you're big enough, if you hold out your hand and beg long enough, the government will give you what you want. Instead, GM et al weakened the industry. It also weakens the finance sector, and sadly their mistakes are only just now catching up with banks.

Let them fail.

It will get ugly for a lot of people, potentially for a long time. But stronger banks and leaders will emerge leading to greater economic security. It won't work unless you leave the market alone to do what it does best.



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07 May 2023, 9:45 am



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cE0_JhLsgPQ


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07 May 2023, 9:35 pm



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3NF349 ... JohnCleese


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11 May 2023, 5:36 pm

AngelRho wrote:
So…they want to teach CRT in public schools or something?
.


Speaking of what they teach (or not) in public schools...

https://apnews.com/article/trump-cnn-to ... ubscribers

The notorious con artist Trump still has a LOT of fans, of whom most have a basic high school education.

They call themselves "conservatives", but we haven't had any intelligent conservatives in the United States for several decades at least.

The term "conservative", as applied in the United States, has become merely an euphemism for a "sh***y person."


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12 May 2023, 6:06 pm



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf5Jn8O3s0c


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25 May 2023, 6:38 pm

Misslizard wrote:
McDonals just got busted for using child labor in Kentucky.
Capitalism in action.
https://brownpoliticalreview.org/2021/1 ... st-system/


Kids could fill labor shortages, even in bars, if these lawmakers succeed

https://apnews.com/article/child-labor- ... ubscribers

Quote:

Lawmakers in several states are embracing legislation to let children work in more hazardous occupations, for more hours on school nights and in expanded roles, including serving alcohol in bars and restaurants as young as 14.


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28 May 2023, 7:16 am

AngelRho wrote:
So…they want to teach CRT in public schools or something?
I thought they already did. Besides what does CRT have to do with communism?
AngelRho wrote:
It's not propaganda if it's true.
It's true because Fox News said it? That's like saying it's true because Charles Ponzi said it.
AngelRho wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Under Capitalism, man exploits man. Under Communism, it is the other way around.
Under capitalism, man is free to exploit man.

Under Communism, man is compelled to exploit man.
So your idea of the only rational and equitable economic policy there is one in which man is free to exploit man? In my experience if man can do something he will.

Then again, market competition could turn into a compulsion rather than a choice. If you're less exploitative than your competitors you may find yourself going out of business.

Besides, the point of the quote is to highlight the similarity between two exploitative systems. Saying that was is worse than the other because it requires man to exploit man and the other simply allows man to exploit man (which he very probably will) is missing the point of the quote.
Sweetleaf wrote:
So jesus was a communist... :lol:
I know you're joking but Jesus wasn't a communist or a capitalist. Such ideas just didn't exist at the time.


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29 May 2023, 12:25 pm

They're even going after Amanda Gorman's poetry.

https://news.yahoo.com/florida-mom-chal ... _test=0_00


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29 May 2023, 12:27 pm

Honey69 wrote:
They're even going after Amanda Gorman's poetry.

https://news.yahoo.com/florida-mom-chal ... _test=0_00


Remember, these are the same hypocrites who want us to worry about "woke cancel culture".


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29 May 2023, 12:42 pm

Quote:
A final version of the resolution that was passed states that "CEA believes that capitalism requires exploitation of children, public schools, land, labor, and/or resources. Capitalism is in opposition to fully addressing systemic racism (the school to prison pipeline), climate change, patriarchy, (gender and LGBTQ disparities), education inequality, and income inequality.


Good for them. We need to see much more of this.

Of course the RW-MSM is going to deride it, their interests lay with the capital class (or, better, is used by that class to "manage" the masses) (the MSM as whole serves this purpose, the "Left"/Dems are just as complicit in using the media to further the interests of the 1%) (turn off the device and go talk to your neighbors/find them online/do what the CEA did/stop believing the politicians in the US, the vast majority of them, have YOUR interests at heart)


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29 May 2023, 7:10 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
what does CRT have to do with communism?

First of all, keep in mind that CT/CRT are complex issues that can't be completely covered in two short paragraphs. Postmodern concepts of narratives/metanarratives, social construction, deconstruction, power structures, language, and context all factor into CT/CRT.

Critical (no-R) Theory involves attempting to explain the shortcomings of communism in terms of exchanging one hegemony for another. The Soviet experiment failed because those responsible pushed for too much change too fast. They were unable to convince most of Russian people to accept it, i.e. over time community leaders could have gradually won Russian people over one policy at a time. Instead, what the Russian people got was just another authoritarian regime. Exit the Romanovs, enter academic elites. The proletarian was not better off in the long term but rather became a permanent revolutionary underclass.

CRT poses the Soviet problem as a white people problem. CRT frames oppression as the product of racial hegemony. As with CT and Soviet communism, racism can't truly be overcome. However, white people are NOT the enemy. Hegemony is the enemy. And the first step is getting white people to admit that they are all racist. It doesn't mean they hate black people (blacks don't hate whites, either). But it does mean over time they become willing to surrender their hegemony in order to achieve true equality. Blacks cannot reasonably expect whites to give up their grip on power, but through education a hegemonic shift is possible given enough time.



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31 May 2023, 3:49 pm

AngelRho wrote:
The Soviet experiment failed because those responsible pushed for too much change too fast.


According to our State Department

https://history.state.gov/milestones/19 ... viet-union

Quote:
Gorbachev’s decision to allow elections with a multi-party system and create a presidency for the Soviet Union began a slow process of democratization that eventually destabilized Communist control and contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union.


AngelRho wrote:
Instead, what the Russian people got was just another authoritarian regime. Exit the Romanovs, enter academic elites. The proletarian was not better off in the long term but rather became a permanent revolutionary underclass.


Now, they've stopped pretending to be anything other than a kleptocracy.

AngelRho wrote:
CRT poses the Soviet problem as a white people problem. CRT frames oppression as the product of racial hegemony. As with CT and Soviet communism, racism can't truly be overcome. However, white people are NOT the enemy. Hegemony is the enemy. And the first step is getting white people to admit that they are all racist. It doesn't mean they hate black people (blacks don't hate whites, either). But it does mean over time they become willing to surrender their hegemony in order to achieve true equality. Blacks cannot reasonably expect whites to give up their grip on power, but through education a hegemonic shift is possible given enough time.


How is it that you know so much about CRT? Weren't you previously positing that no-one should study CRT?


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01 Jun 2023, 9:09 am

Honey69 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
The Soviet experiment failed because those responsible pushed for too much change too fast.


According to our State Department

https://history.state.gov/milestones/19 ... viet-union

Quote:
Gorbachev’s decision to allow elections with a multi-party system and create a presidency for the Soviet Union began a slow process of democratization that eventually destabilized Communist control and contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Critical Theory dates back to the Weimar Republic and the Frankfurt School. They were already aware of the problems of Leninism-Marxism and why Soviet Communism was inadequate for society.

I tend to focus on CT’s analysis of Communism because Communism and other collectivist strategies center on power structures and victim classes. Capitalist democracies deal with power structures as a natural product of evolution through competition, so there’s not much to discuss for the purpose of understanding CT/CRT. Suffice it to say CT is anti-capitalist.

I’m well aware of the immediate causes of the Soviet Union’s collapse. I’m not discussing what actually happened. My concern is for CT’s deconstruction of those events.

It’s interesting. I explain CT’s position regarding the fall of the USSR and you regale me some facts about how exactly it went down. I never said CT was factual. CT holds that language is a social construct, therefore history/facts are subjective. CT is about narrative over evidence, with CRT even more so. The purpose of language is to reinforce power structures, not to actually mean anything. It doesn’t matter why you think the USSR disintegrated. It doesn’t matter what facts you present to support your reasons. What matters is it was a rigid system rapidly implemented without giving people a chance to accept it on their own, that the way it happened did not result in a just, egalitarian society, but rather just more hegemony that kept poor people poor by design.

Looking back on the fall of the USSR, CT would say that it was inevitable, that communism didn’t solve the problem of hegemony, and, idk, maybe that it left a void that was quickly filled with yet another oppressive and power-hungry regime. Ongoing scholarship in CT might go on to ask why this keeps happening and what steps must be taken.

As to my personal view…

I don’t believe in the equality of races or gender. I believe in the value and potential of each and every individual human being. People who are legitimately victims, such as African slaves, cannot achieve greatness simply by forcing freedom on them. The way this happened in America did them more harm than good. But the intellectual achievements of freed slaves even before the Civil War were breathtaking for the time. They weren’t the product of slavery or skin color or culture. Those achievements were the product of powerful minds. You might say that their ideas were the result of experience as slaves. But why weren’t there more well-known black intellectuals? And it’s because few blacks had the same values as Frederick Douglass. The same holds for white people—if white people are so privileged and well-educated, how come there aren’t more white philosophers than there are? Same reason—we don’t as a culture value philosophy or classical education.

My fascination with CT and CRT is that they represent the sacrifice of the individual to the collective. There are no individuals in CRT—just blacks and whites, or rather white people and everyone else. If you are white, you are an oppressor. If you are not white, you are and can only be a victim. It’s an absurd pattern of thought because the achievement of equality is the negation of those theories—they would simply cease to exist. But, of course, don’t forget about deconstruction. Language is a social construct. If equality ever WAS achieved, the meaning of equality would simply be challenged. Yes, blacks are free—according to WHITE people, because what WHITE people mean by freedom and equality are completely different from what black people mean.



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01 Jun 2023, 11:08 am

AngelRho wrote:
People who are legitimately victims, such as African slaves, cannot achieve greatness simply by forcing freedom on them. The way this happened in America did them more harm than good.


You didn't care much for the 13th Amendment?


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01 Jun 2023, 11:58 am

Honey69 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
People who are legitimately victims, such as African slaves, cannot achieve greatness simply by forcing freedom on them. The way this happened in America did them more harm than good.


You didn't care much for the 13th Amendment?

Well, let’s see:
Quote:

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


Why would I have a problem with that? It’s absurd for a society that claims to be free to have human slaves.