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The vanishing American man

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Honey69
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04 May 2023, 10:18 pm

I thought that I would put this up for discussion

https://www.deseret.com/2023/3/16/23627 ... -to-launch

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From college to the workplace to romance, why are so many young men not in the picture?

...It’s not so much the vanishing American adult that is the problem today, but the vanishing American man.

Young women in America have their own struggles — including a mental-health crisis that seems to be worsened, if not caused, by social media — but young women are going to college at rates higher than men. Despite a persistent wage gap, they are out-earning young men in some cities. And young women are less likely than young men to live with their parents.

Meanwhile, young men are falling behind in education, participating less in the job market and fewer are looking for romantic relationships....

...one of the reasons young men are struggling is the lack of male role models in their lives. Others...contend that young men are vanishing because our culture is devaluing traditionally masculine virtues and skills....

...I fear they are growing up in a society that no longer values the time-honored principles of self-reliance and communal purpose, which used to be inextricable from adulthood for both men and women, but now seem optional for men in particular.

There are two main reasons for this, the first ideological and the second economic.

In America today, it seems fashionable to reject facts while elevating feelings, to pursue rights while ignoring responsibilities, and to marginalize measures of achievement while promoting false measures of equity. With the rise of “gentle” parenting, we downplay the virtues of competence, toughness and self-sacrifice, while teaching kids that the world owes them utopian levels of comfort, security and acceptance.

Moreover, we no longer offer our young men any universal incentive to embrace the traditional responsibilities of adulthood. In a culture that values tolerance above all else, many Americans fear being judgmental, particularly of the young. Those who hold unemployed young men to account, such as radio host Dave Ramsey, are often dismissed for their lack of empathy and understanding.

Therefore, we can no longer rely on our fellow Americans to maintain that men who work hard, support families and contribute to their communities are worthy of praise, while those that prefer sloth to industry, porn to relationships, and dependence to self-reliance are worthy of marginalization or censure.

Meanwhile, the economic component of our failure to produce self-sufficient adult men is that many young men no longer buy the American “rags to riches” narrative, which served as an incentive for many of our working-class fathers and grandfathers...many millennials are worse off than their parents, and in one survey, two-thirds of Americans think the downward mobility trend will continue even as income inequality increases.

Those American men that are not economically secure perceive the widening gulf between their own circumstances and those of their upper-middle class counterparts to be unscalable, and rightly so. Disinvestment in blue-collar workers and simultaneous investment in those whose careers require higher education has left many men, in particular, behind.

Then there’s the fact that many American men have no reason to work toward comfort because they are already comfortable enough living in their parents’ homes. If they see no reason to strive for the betterment of others (having no wife, no family and no sense of a professional vocation serving the broader world), stagnation is the inevitable result.

Of course it is an oversimplification to classify these economic and ideological realities as two separate phenomena. In truth, they produce and reproduce one another in a vicious cycle — one that must be reversed...


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ASPartOfMe
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04 May 2023, 11:37 pm

Agree with this.

That a small percentage of men lash out by doing mass shootings likely has something to do with this.

As they say, explanation does not equate to excuse. In the vast vast majority of cases, mass shooters target people who have nothing to do with their problems.


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05 May 2023, 1:51 am

Great article.

I could say the same about women, especially in paragraphs like this:

quote wrote:
Therefore, we can no longer rely on our fellow Americans to maintain that men who work hard, support families and contribute to their communities are worthy of praise, while those that prefer sloth to industry, porn to relationships, and dependence to self-reliance are worthy of marginalization or censure.



but I agree men are falling behind at a greater rate than women.

When I'm more coherent I'll come back to this.


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05 May 2023, 1:53 am

Here we identify seven reasons why the growing enrollment disparity exists on American college campuses.

1) Women who might otherwise spend their college years starting their own families may be taking advantage of contraceptive practices to delay pregnancy until after they have established themselves professionally, if they ever get pregnant at all.

2) The initial surge in female enrollment may be linked to a rapid rise in female labor force participation -- with a successful career further enhanced by a college education.

3) Labor market shifts may have worked to favor women’s interests and strengths, specifically in the fields of healthcare and education, where labor market demand has dramatically increased in these service-oriented industries.

4) Women have outperformed men academically (a grade point average of about 3.1 for women versus 2.9 for men), with men more likely to have disciplinary problems in college.

5) There are about 1.24 million more men who are criminally incarcerated than women, largely preventing them from attending traditional college, even if they can eventually afford the tuition.

6) Government entitlements may have reduced traditional family formation, and may have reduced incentives for men to excel in school and on the job, and resulted in increased crime.

7) Three times as many boys are diagnosed with ADHD versus girls.  Drug treatments may have robbed these young boys of their spontaneity and initiative, and stigmatization may have resulted in low self-esteem issues and internalizing low expectations.


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05 May 2023, 2:16 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Agree with this.

That a small percentage of men lash out by doing mass shootings likely has something to do with this.

As they say, explanation does not equate to excuse. In the vast vast majority of cases, mass shooters target people who have nothing to do with their problems.


I THANK YOU!! ! :wink:



Nades
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05 May 2023, 8:56 am

Fnord wrote:
Here we identify seven reasons why the growing enrollment disparity exists on American college campuses.

1) Women who might otherwise spend their college years starting their own families may be taking advantage of contraceptive practices to delay pregnancy until after they have established themselves professionally, if they ever get pregnant at all.

2) The initial surge in female enrollment may be linked to a rapid rise in female labor force participation -- with a successful career further enhanced by a college education.

3) Labor market shifts may have worked to favor women’s interests and strengths, specifically in the fields of healthcare and education, where labor market demand has dramatically increased in these service-oriented industries.

4) Women have outperformed men academically (a grade point average of about 3.1 for women versus 2.9 for men), with men more likely to have disciplinary problems in college.

5) There are about 1.24 million more men who are criminally incarcerated than women, largely preventing them from attending traditional college, even if they can eventually afford the tuition.

6) Government entitlements may have reduced traditional family formation, and may have reduced incentives for men to excel in school and on the job, and resulted in increased crime.

7) Three times as many boys are diagnosed with ADHD versus girls.  Drug treatments may have robbed these young boys of their spontaneity and initiative, and stigmatization may have resulted in low self-esteem issues and internalizing low expectations.


My own view on this is that men naturally have a slight preference to work that doesn't require a degree. Men seem more "hands on" and enjoy more tactile work work where women generally pick "people" and services over "things".

I've been at both ends. I'm a university drop out but now work in heavy industry blue collar. A lot of men in the workshop have a degree. It's hard to ignore the differences in vocations between men and women and also the difference in work ethics. Even the company director who has multiple millions and a masters is rough around the edges and doesn't seem too interested in academic fields other than why his dogs have biological urges to trow themelves under heavy machinery at every opportunity.

There might also be the "empowerment" trend. Genuine empowered women who can handle life with a generous income of their own seem to be increasing in numbers but there are a great deal of fakers out there who by being unemployed and depend on others for their housing needs, only draw even more attention to the more powerful women (who the fakers are not)



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05 May 2023, 10:18 am

Adulthood is no longer a rite of passage these days. It all started in the Late 60s during the Hippie Movement. Less and less young men and women started joining the army. Young people started rejecting the traditional things such as work, honour and religion. More women started getting jobs which I don't have a problem with. Men started to realize that it was no longer for them to be breadwinners since women joined the workforce. Society places more importance on careers than it does on family, so women would rather have a career. I don't have a problem with women wanting careers, but I am Pro-life and Pro-family. Church and home, wife and kinder.


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MatchboxVagabond
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05 May 2023, 10:59 am

Nades wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Here we identify seven reasons why the growing enrollment disparity exists on American college campuses.

1) Women who might otherwise spend their college years starting their own families may be taking advantage of contraceptive practices to delay pregnancy until after they have established themselves professionally, if they ever get pregnant at all.

2) The initial surge in female enrollment may be linked to a rapid rise in female labor force participation -- with a successful career further enhanced by a college education.

3) Labor market shifts may have worked to favor women’s interests and strengths, specifically in the fields of healthcare and education, where labor market demand has dramatically increased in these service-oriented industries.

4) Women have outperformed men academically (a grade point average of about 3.1 for women versus 2.9 for men), with men more likely to have disciplinary problems in college.

5) There are about 1.24 million more men who are criminally incarcerated than women, largely preventing them from attending traditional college, even if they can eventually afford the tuition.

6) Government entitlements may have reduced traditional family formation, and may have reduced incentives for men to excel in school and on the job, and resulted in increased crime.

7) Three times as many boys are diagnosed with ADHD versus girls.  Drug treatments may have robbed these young boys of their spontaneity and initiative, and stigmatization may have resulted in low self-esteem issues and internalizing low expectations.


My own view on this is that men naturally have a slight preference to work that doesn't require a degree. Men seem more "hands on" and enjoy more tactile work work where women generally pick "people" and services over "things".

I've been at both ends. I'm a university drop out but now work in heavy industry blue collar. A lot of men in the workshop have a degree. It's hard to ignore the differences in vocations between men and women and also the difference in work ethics. Even the company director who has multiple millions and a masters is rough around the edges and doesn't seem too interested in academic fields other than why his dogs have biological urges to trow themelves under heavy machinery at every opportunity.

There might also be the "empowerment" trend. Genuine empowered women who can handle life with a generous income of their own seem to be increasing in numbers but there are a great deal of fakers out there who by being unemployed and depend on others for their housing needs, only draw even more attention to the more powerful women (who the fakers are not)

I don't know that that's it, though. Even before boys get to the point where they are making those decisions, they've already been beaten down pretty hard by schools for being effectively broken girls. The vast majority of K-12 teachers are women, and the things that boys have a disproportionate need for, like PE and recess, are the things that are being cut due to budges and the like. It's not that much different, severity aside, from what undiagnosed ASD folks deal with.

If there is a predisposition toward those jobs, it seems likely that it's also a matter of being given a ton of negative programming and seeing what the previous educational experiences were like, and wanting out as soon as possible. It's unacceptable to expose students to a bunch of negative programming about how horrible women are, even if the examples are factually correct, but somehow the same courtesy is not extended to male students who are forced to sit through curriculum that serves no basis other than to demonize them, and often over things that were of questionable accuracy before they were even born.

That being said, I do think it's pretty clear that things for girls are also devolving as more of the resources go to the greedy at the expense of everybody else.



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05 May 2023, 11:00 am

Honey69 wrote:
Even Cardi B's song "WAP" received widespread critical acclaim for its sex-positive message and for empowering women. If a man were to do a similar performance, it would get widespread critical shame.


Have you heard Get Low?



This was a significant hit for Lil Jon and the East Side Boyz.

Skeet is slang for male ejaculation.


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Honey69
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05 May 2023, 11:11 am

It used to be that the vast majority of people were employed in agriculture. Now, in the USA, about 2% of the workforce is employed in farming, and most of us are over-fed. We pretty much have the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy taken care of.

Image

With the Industrial Revolution, a lot of people moved from farms to factories, to produce s**t that we might or might not need.

Now, improved automation has reduced the need for human labor.

Artificial intelligence, computers, etc., have reduced the requirements for human input further.

When he was running for president, Ross Perot used to quip that there were more United States Department of Agriculture employees than there were farmers, which might not have been far from the truth.

To produce everything that we need, we really don't need everyone to work. But, we're still operating as if we are in Industrial Revolution mode.

Now, a lot of jobs are just "BS."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs

Quote:

In BS Jobs, American anthropologist David Graeber posits that the productivity benefits of automation have not led to a 15-hour workweek, as predicted by economist John Maynard Keynes in 1930, but instead to "BS jobs": "a form of paid employment that is so completely pointless, unnecessary, or pernicious that even the employee cannot justify its existence even though, as part of the conditions of employment, the employee feels obliged to pretend that this is not the case." While these jobs can offer good compensation and ample free time, Graeber holds that the pointlessness of the work grates at their humanity and creates a "profound psychological violence"...


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Honey69
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05 May 2023, 11:25 am

funeralxempire wrote:

Have you heard Get Low?

This was a significant hit for Lil Jon and the East Side Boyz.

Skeet is slang for male ejaculation.


Nowhere near as sexy as Cardy B.

And,

https://www.songtell.com/lil-jon-the-ea ... op-trippin

Quote:

The song "Stop Trippin" by Lil Jon & The East Side Boyz (Ft. Daddy T, Lil Chris, and Ludacris) appears to be a crude celebration of promiscuity and partying. The first verse by Ludacris takes a blunt tone, aggressively dismissing haters and emphasizing his pursuit of pleasure. He describes himself getting high in the back and seeking out the company of women to engage in casual sex with. The chorus repeatedly urges others to "stop trippin," or stop worrying and just enjoy themselves, while also encouraging them to dance and shake their bodies. The second verse by Daddy T similarly boasts about his sexual prowess and objectifies women. He criticizes those who stay at home and implies that he enjoys sleeping with his friends' girlfriends. The bridge echoes the hip hop tradition of objectifying women, imploring women to "bounce that ass" and emphasizing the hedonistic nature of the song. Lil Chris's verses in the third and fourth parts continue this crude celebration of casual sex and disregard for others' feelings. He brags about his ability to seduce women, even those in relationships, and encourages others to do the same. The final repeat of the chorus and outro emphasize the crude and hedonistic nature of the song, celebrating a lifestyle of partying and sex without any consequences or emotional attachment.



Critical shame received.


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funeralxempire
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05 May 2023, 11:28 am

Honey69 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Have you heard Get Low?

This was a significant hit for Lil Jon and the East Side Boyz.

Skeet is slang for male ejaculation.


Nowhere near as sexy as Cardy B.

And,

https://www.songtell.com/lil-jon-the-ea ... op-trippin

Quote:

The song "Stop Trippin" by Lil Jon & The East Side Boyz (Ft. Daddy T, Lil Chris, and Ludacris) appears to be a crude celebration of promiscuity and partying. The first verse by Ludacris takes a blunt tone, aggressively dismissing haters and emphasizing his pursuit of pleasure. He describes himself getting high in the back and seeking out the company of women to engage in casual sex with. The chorus repeatedly urges others to "stop trippin," or stop worrying and just enjoy themselves, while also encouraging them to dance and shake their bodies. The second verse by Daddy T similarly boasts about his sexual prowess and objectifies women. He criticizes those who stay at home and implies that he enjoys sleeping with his friends' girlfriends. The bridge echoes the hip hop tradition of objectifying women, imploring women to "bounce that ass" and emphasizing the hedonistic nature of the song. Lil Chris's verses in the third and fourth parts continue this crude celebration of casual sex and disregard for others' feelings. He brags about his ability to seduce women, even those in relationships, and encourages others to do the same. The final repeat of the chorus and outro emphasize the crude and hedonistic nature of the song, celebrating a lifestyle of partying and sex without any consequences or emotional attachment.



Critical shame received.


You mean there were critical responses, just like WAP received?

Neither song was universally well-received.


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Honey69
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05 May 2023, 11:31 am

Here is the original article by David Graeber: On the Phenomenon of BS Jobs: A Work Rant

https://web.archive.org/web/20180807024 ... shit-jobs/


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Honey69
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05 May 2023, 12:01 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
You mean there were critical responses, just like WAP received?

Neither song was universally well-received.


But, did "Get Low" receive widespread, or any, critical acclaim for its sex-positive message and for empowering men?


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funeralxempire
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05 May 2023, 12:03 pm

Honey69 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
You mean there were critical responses, just like WAP received?

Neither song was universally well-received.


But, did "Get Low" receive widespread, or any, critical acclaim for its sex-positive message and for empowering men?


Men were already well-empowered in that regard, so it was unable to make a comparable impact in that regard, or be praised for accomplishing something that was already the norm.

To have the same impact, men's sexuality would first need to have been treated like how women's sexuality often is.

It's not a big deal when men release raunchy songs, it's almost expected in some genres.


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Honey69
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05 May 2023, 12:12 pm

So, there you have it. Critical acclaim for women. Critical shame for men. For similar pieces of work.


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