Brownshirt cop storms school to find LGBTQI book

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RedDeathFlower13
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26 Dec 2023, 1:05 am

funeralxempire wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
I feel the exact same way. Even the Smithsonian Channel documentary about the Dahomian Women Warriors really downplayed the fact that these people were brutal slavers who terrorized villages and were responsible for playing a huge role in much of the slave trade even after it was outlawed.


WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BRING UP HISTORY?! CAN'T YOU JUST SAY YASS QUEEN LIKE THE REST OF US?!


Because I'm too cynical and I get tired of feeling like the only one to see things as they really are in this messed up world. :lol:


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cyberdad
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26 Dec 2023, 3:25 am

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Then again I'm now living in a world where they make crappy movies like "The Woman King" to rewrite the actual true history of slavery that involved Dahomian Africans brutally raiding villages and selling their own people into slavery to the Europeans (the movie from what I understand basically twists historical facts to suggest that these women warriors were fighting to free slaves or some bs like that).


I was curious if you found "The Woman King" worse or better than Netflix's "Cleopatra"? both ended up being works of fiction



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26 Dec 2023, 4:12 am

cyberdad wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Then again I'm now living in a world where they make crappy movies like "The Woman King" to rewrite the actual true history of slavery that involved Dahomian Africans brutally raiding villages and selling their own people into slavery to the Europeans (the movie from what I understand basically twists historical facts to suggest that these women warriors were fighting to free slaves or some bs like that).


I was curious if you found "The Woman King" worse or better than Netflix's "Cleopatra"? both ended up being works of fiction


I'd say worse. Egypt is part of Africa he whole controversy over Cleopatra's actual race is heavily debatable by scholars since we have little to no evidence of what she actually looked like but it's not exactly a secret lost to time that the Dahomians were brutal slavers who raided villages and sold many Africans including people from their own kingdom to the Europeans and Americans even after the slave trade was outlawed.

I think that the only reason they get media attention now is because they really were in fact a society where the army was made up almost entirely of women. I get why people would find that intriguing in an age where people are now looking for strong female role models of color etc, but we shouldnt forget the fact that these women warriors were also brutal slavers who used scorched earth tactics and still lost to the French powers who colonized Dahomey and made it Modern Day Benin. I don't believe they should be celebrated as heroes of "racial justice." If anything they should be condemned for their part in the slave trade.

I have a different group of female warrior role models I admire who also happen to be Women of Color (although they're not African but Japanese women). A brave Japanese samurai woman named Takeko Nakano who led an army of women along with her mother and sister to fight the Imperial Army during Japan's Civil War that resulted in the Emperor toppling the Shogunate.

Despite the way women were treated in Japanese society during her time these women fought to the death to protect their community and loved ones from men who would have no doubt raped and sold them into slavery. I find that much more admirable than a bunch of female slavers fighting for a self-serving king who betrayed many of his own people in his thirst for power.

https://youtu.be/zQouh5yczWI?si=Uo9hn-qTaYD6of_y



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakano_Takeko


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cyberdad
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26 Dec 2023, 6:29 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
I'd say worse. Egypt is part of Africa he whole controversy over Cleopatra's actual race is heavily debatable by scholars since we have little to no evidence of what she actually looked like but it's not exactly a secret lost to time


Netflix was heavily criticised for multiple reasons
1. They chose to pitch it as a "documentary" not as fiction (which is what it was)
2. Either Netflix or Jada Pinkett Smith (or both?) cast an actress who neither shared the ethnicity or resembled the sculptures of Cleopatra. The latter was a Greek Ptolemy and her carving/images consistently show a woman with a large aquiline nose, thin lips, straight hair typical of a Greek woman today. The fact Gal Gadot and Elizabeth Taylor played the character in movies before and also don't resemble Cleopatra is irrelevant because the movies were works of fiction. The choice made was designed to push an afrocentric narrative that is a distortion of history.
3. Cleopatra was portrayed as a feminist and pro-woman. There was no evidence she was either of these.
4. Cleopatra was portrayed as culturally an "indigenous" Egyptian. While she was the first in her dynastic line to speak Egyptian I don't think there is any evidence she dressed like an Egyptian or ate Egyptian cuisine? A more likely scenario is she was imperial head of state like a British governor of India. It was not uncommon for a governor to learn the local language otherwise they were culturally British. Another example is French Norman kings who ruled Britain. They primarily spoke French/Latin but might have learned English because that was the language spoken by their subjects.

The fact Cleopatra was able to move easily among Greeks and Romans and lived )for a time) in Rome suggest she was simply culturally and linguistically adaptable. She was considered a reincarnation of the Egyptian goddess Isis to Egyptian people but this was more a power thing, she also was known (like other Ptolemies before her) to worship Greek deities like Aphrodite and Venus.

5. There is no evidence Cleopatra danced in public, again Netflix portrayed her like she was dancing in a rap video
6. There is no evidence (and highly unlikely) Cleopatra was capable of wielding a sword? again Netflix taking license to portray her as some type of warrior queen like the Celtic Boudica is total fiction
7. Many of the stories (including how she took her life) are largely embellishments created long after she lived/died. I don't dispute to the Roman she was considered "exotic" and perhaps this fed into some stories. The most uninformed line in the making of Cleopatra is the older African American lady saying "don't believe what teachers tell you, Cleopatra was black" and then Egyptologists being interviewed and taken out of context saying her race was ambiguous. The whole exercise was designed to misinform which netflix probably should have been held accountable.



RedDeathFlower13
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26 Dec 2023, 6:35 pm

cyberdad wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
I'd say worse. Egypt is part of Africa he whole controversy over Cleopatra's actual race is heavily debatable by scholars since we have little to no evidence of what she actually looked like but it's not exactly a secret lost to time


Netflix was heavily criticised for multiple reasons
1. They chose to pitch it as a "documentary" not as fiction (which is what it was)
2. Either Netflix or Jada Pinkett Smith (or both?) cast an actress who neither shared the ethnicity or resembled the sculptures of Cleopatra. The latter was a Greek Ptolemy and her carving/images consistently show a woman with a large aquiline nose, thin lips, straight hair typical of a Greek woman today. The fact Gal Gadot and Elizabeth Taylor played the character in movies before and also don't resemble Cleopatra is irrelevant because the movies were works of fiction. The choice made was designed to push an afrocentric narrative that is a distortion of history.
3. Cleopatra was portrayed as a feminist and pro-woman. There was no evidence she was either of these.
4. Cleopatra was portrayed as culturally an "indigenous" Egyptian. While she was the first in her dynastic line to speak Egyptian I don't think there is any evidence she dressed like an Egyptian or ate Egyptian cuisine? A more likely scenario is she was imperial head of state like a British governor of India. It was not uncommon for a governor to learn the local language otherwise they were culturally British. Another example is French Norman kings who ruled Britain. They primarily spoke French/Latin but might have learned English because that was the language spoken by their subjects.

The fact Cleopatra was able to move easily among Greeks and Romans and lived )for a time) in Rome suggest she was simply culturally and linguistically adaptable. She was considered a reincarnation of the Egyptian goddess Isis to Egyptian people but this was more a power thing, she also was known (like other Ptolemies before her) to worship Greek deities like Aphrodite and Venus.

5. There is no evidence Cleopatra danced in public, again Netflix portrayed her like she was dancing in a rap video
6. There is no evidence (and highly unlikely) Cleopatra was capable of wielding a sword? again Netflix taking license to portray her as some type of warrior queen like the Celtic Boudica is total fiction
7. Many of the stories (including how she took her life) are largely embellishments created long after she lived/died. I don't dispute to the Roman she was considered "exotic" and perhaps this fed into some stories. The most uninformed line in the making of Cleopatra is the older African American lady saying "don't believe what teachers tell you, Cleopatra was black" and then Egyptologists being interviewed and taken out of context saying her race was ambiguous. The whole exercise was designed to misinform which netflix probably should have been held accountable.


Well believe it or not I know even less about Ancient Egyptian history than I do about the Kingdom of Dahomey. But yeah, those are all very good points.


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cyberdad
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26 Dec 2023, 6:47 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
I think that the only reason they get media attention now is because they really were in fact a society where the army was made up almost entirely of women.


The only saving grace with the "Woman King" is that its pitched as Hollywood fiction. I think the producers were primarily interested in making the Dahomey "heroines" because they were a female army.

The fact the real Dahomey survived (for a considerable time) on enslaving and exporting slaves to Europeans should have been a sign the African American community should have rejected the movie (I am a little surprised John Boyega and Viola Davis accepted the roles?).

The problem here is US afrocentricism is the way African Americans appropriate cultures in Africa as their own which shared no similarities with their ancestors other than (vaguely) geography. There was a popular movie in the 1970s called Ashanti which showed the Africans to be warriors. But again the Ashanti were primarily a slave owning tribe and participants in the slave trade (although while the Dahomey traded with Europeans, the Ashanti supplied slaves to the Arabs).

In recent years DNA testing has become popular among African Americans. For almost all they trace their African roots to very specific regions in west Africa. Hopefully this will educate those who take these tests that they are not the carriers of a legacy from places like Egypt or Ethiopia where the local people have no interest at all in pan Africanism.



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26 Dec 2023, 11:22 pm

cyberdad wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Know what I find amusing about all this? The irony in the fact that the left is trying to ban books like "To Kill A Mockingbird". :jester:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/educatio ... ashington/


Why not actually look at the reasons this book has created controversy as a school reading (this was also mandatory reading for Australian English students).

The objections to the book have shifted over time. In 1966, a Virginia school board banned the book for its “immoral” depiction of rape. Forty years later, a California school district forbade teaching “Mockingbird” after parents alleged it was racist for its use of the n-word and portrayal of Black people.

The book was a product of its time, There is some irony that conservatives want this book in the school curriculum but if a teacher tried to explain why in the 1960s it was acceptable to publish a book with the n-word the teacher would likely be fired under draconian republican laws for inciting racial division.

No idea what your point it.

Deathflower is right. It IS ironic ..that a book that was sympathetic to the Black Civil Rights Movement would be objected to by Liberals of today.



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26 Dec 2023, 11:56 pm

^^^

I don't think it matters, since Harper Lee never intended for her book to be a vehicle for the civil rights movement. The book was mean't to be semi-autobiographical with a backdrop around around an important event in her attorney father's actual legal case in 1931 where he unsuccessfully defended a black man in a rape case. Many of the characters in TKAMB were drawn from her childhood. Once that is understood then the language and values coming through the book were mean't to be authentic to the times (like Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn). The adventures of Huckleberry finn was Twain's attempt to show the humanity in a black character but was also a product of its time with its gratuitous use of the n-word (like Harper Lee did in her book).

In her later life she likely self-promoted herself as being "socially/morally conscious" and being on the right side of history. However, I don't agree with cancelling her book. Given openly racist authors from the same era as Harper Lee still have cult followings (HP Lovecraft for example) then it would be silly to pick on her book. Children in schools only need learn the historical context of the book in order to understand the language, Another example is Peter Pan where the depiction of native americans also needs some subtext to explain to students why James Barrie's views of native people which were common for the time.



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27 Dec 2023, 12:40 am

cyberdad wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
I'd say worse. Egypt is part of Africa he whole controversy over Cleopatra's actual race is heavily debatable by scholars since we have little to no evidence of what she actually looked like but it's not exactly a secret lost to time


Netflix was heavily criticised for multiple reasons
1. They chose to pitch it as a "documentary" not as fiction (which is what it was)
2. Either Netflix or Jada Pinkett Smith (or both?) cast an actress who neither shared the ethnicity or resembled the sculptures of Cleopatra. The latter was a Greek Ptolemy and her carving/images consistently show a woman with a large aquiline nose, thin lips, straight hair typical of a Greek woman today. The fact Gal Gadot and Elizabeth Taylor played the character in movies before and also don't resemble Cleopatra is irrelevant because the movies were works of fiction. The choice made was designed to push an afrocentric narrative that is a distortion of history.
3. Cleopatra was portrayed as a feminist and pro-woman. There was no evidence she was either of these.
4. Cleopatra was portrayed as culturally an "indigenous" Egyptian. While she was the first in her dynastic line to speak Egyptian I don't think there is any evidence she dressed like an Egyptian or ate Egyptian cuisine? A more likely scenario is she was imperial head of state like a British governor of India. It was not uncommon for a governor to learn the local language otherwise they were culturally British. Another example is French Norman kings who ruled Britain. They primarily spoke French/Latin but might have learned English because that was the language spoken by their subjects.

The fact Cleopatra was able to move easily among Greeks and Romans and lived )for a time) in Rome suggest she was simply culturally and linguistically adaptable. She was considered a reincarnation of the Egyptian goddess Isis to Egyptian people but this was more a power thing, she also was known (like other Ptolemies before her) to worship Greek deities like Aphrodite and Venus.

5. There is no evidence Cleopatra danced in public, again Netflix portrayed her like she was dancing in a rap video
6. There is no evidence (and highly unlikely) Cleopatra was capable of wielding a sword? again Netflix taking license to portray her as some type of warrior queen like the Celtic Boudica is total fiction
7. Many of the stories (including how she took her life) are largely embellishments created long after she lived/died. I don't dispute to the Roman she was considered "exotic" and perhaps this fed into some stories. The most uninformed line in the making of Cleopatra is the older African American lady saying "don't believe what teachers tell you, Cleopatra was black" and then Egyptologists being interviewed and taken out of context saying her race was ambiguous. The whole exercise was designed to misinform which netflix probably should have been held accountable.

How was Cleopatra "culturally adaptable"?

She was a Greek herself. So hobknobbing with Greeks from Greece, and hanging out in Rome was the same as staying home culturally. Rome and the whole of southeast Europe, southwest Asia, and Egypt, were "the Hellenistic World" at that time.

Learning the indiginous language of her own country was more of stretch. But even that was a common trend in her late Hellenistic time, and Roman times. The Greek ruling elite of Egypt was starting to dabble in Egyptian culture and starting to hybridize Greek Gods with Egyptian gods.



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27 Dec 2023, 12:47 am

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Then again I'm now living in a world where they make crappy movies like "The Woman King" to rewrite the actual true history of slavery that involved Dahomian Africans brutally raiding villages and selling their own people into slavery to the Europeans (the movie from what I understand basically twists historical facts to suggest that these women warriors were fighting to free slaves or some bs like that).


You cant win for losin'. Lol!

You comb history and you find a tribe of strong...Black..Women...warriors. What could be more inspiring for a movie for our time? Only to learn that that same tribe were dedicated slavers.

But they did fight the French. But if we can celebrate George Washington for fighting the redcoats for freedom, but gloss over the fact that he owned a slave plantation then...why not put similar wax on the lens for these Dahomanian women warriors? I dunno. Just a thought. If we can romanticize the one than we can romanticize the other.



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27 Dec 2023, 2:21 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Learning the indiginous language of her own country was more of stretch. But even that was a common trend in her late Hellenistic time, and Roman times. The Greek ruling elite of Egypt was starting to dabble in Egyptian culture and starting to hybridize Greek Gods with Egyptian gods.


Good point, whether she was fluent in Egyptian to speak to her servants OR just learned a few phrases to impress the local scribes is probably something we will never be know. She was (for all intents and purposes) an international figure of sorts. Kind of like the way members of European royalty are today. Phillip the Greek (for example) is as much Greek as an eskimo, He was Danish in blood and British in terms of language and culture.



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27 Dec 2023, 5:07 am

naturalplastic wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Then again I'm now living in a world where they make crappy movies like "The Woman King" to rewrite the actual true history of slavery that involved Dahomian Africans brutally raiding villages and selling their own people into slavery to the Europeans (the movie from what I understand basically twists historical facts to suggest that these women warriors were fighting to free slaves or some bs like that).


You cant win for losin'. Lol!

You comb history and you find a tribe of strong...Black..Women...warriors. What could be more inspiring for a movie for our time? Only to learn that that same tribe were dedicated slavers.

But they did fight the French. But if we can celebrate George Washington for fighting the redcoats for freedom, but gloss over the fact that he owned a slave plantation then...why not put similar wax on the lens for these Dahomanian women warriors? I dunno. Just a thought. If we can romanticize the one than we can romanticize the other.


*big sigh* This movie didn't just romantasize what the Dahomians did, it did a 180 degree turn on history. It would be the equivalent of making a movie where the Nazis were portrayed as the heroes fighting antisemitism.


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27 Dec 2023, 5:48 am

naturalplastic wrote:
But they did fight the French. But if we can celebrate George Washington for fighting the redcoats for freedom, but gloss over the fact that he owned a slave plantation then...why not put similar wax on the lens for these Dahomanian women warriors? I dunno. Just a thought. If we can romanticize the one than we can romanticize the other.


Apparently the "progressive" French were completely bamboozled by the concept of female warriors.
There is some theories that even posit that the ancient myth of the amazons might have been based on the Dahomey warriors given their fierce reputation.



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27 Dec 2023, 7:01 am

Two things.

I strongly suspect that West Africa in the era during which The Woman King was set didn't have chattel slavery like in the American colonies. Those slavers probably had no idea what would happen to the people they sold. I won't try to excuse them, but what they did was probably routine for monarchs at that time.

Cleopatra was accomplished politician and as part of her career had sex with multiple men to achieve her own ends. She probably wasn't glamorous in the way she has been portrayed on film. I think it's a damn shame nobody ever tried to portray her life and career on film in a way that didn't necessarily try to make a "sex symbol" of whoever is cast in the leading role.


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27 Dec 2023, 8:35 am

MaxE wrote:
Two things.

I strongly suspect that West Africa in the era during which The Woman King was set didn't have chattel slavery like in the American colonies. Those slavers probably had no idea what would happen to the people they sold. I won't try to excuse them, but what they did was probably routine for monarchs at that time.


Sorry but that really is a really piss poor excuse no matter how you try to slice it. :roll:

The whole "Slavery must have been ok in other places around the world because only American slavery was evil" argument doesnt work for me.


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Last edited by RedDeathFlower13 on 27 Dec 2023, 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

naturalplastic
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27 Dec 2023, 8:39 am

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Then again I'm now living in a world where they make crappy movies like "The Woman King" to rewrite the actual true history of slavery that involved Dahomian Africans brutally raiding villages and selling their own people into slavery to the Europeans (the movie from what I understand basically twists historical facts to suggest that these women warriors were fighting to free slaves or some bs like that).


You cant win for losin'. Lol!

You comb history and you find a tribe of strong...Black..Women...warriors. What could be more inspiring for a movie for our time? Only to learn that that same tribe were dedicated slavers.

But they did fight the French. But if we can celebrate George Washington for fighting the redcoats for freedom, but gloss over the fact that he owned a slave plantation then...why not put similar wax on the lens for these Dahomanian women warriors? I dunno. Just a thought. If we can romanticize the one than we can romanticize the other.


*big sigh* This movie didn't just romantasize what the Dahomians did, it did a 180 degree turn on history. It would be the equivalent of making a movie where the Nazis were portrayed as the heroes fighting antisemitism.


Its more complicated than that. All of the Black kingdoms of west africa were into slave making.

From what I learned just now on Wiki:

What Max said, plus...

The Fon of Dahomoney were getting clobbered by the neighboring Yoruba. Their man power was sapped by the constant warring and by the fact the Yoruba kings demanded young men as tribute from the Fon. So the Fon got around the latter by raising a brigade of women warriors to help fight back against the Yoruba.

@Cyber. The Greeks myths of Amazon warriors probably date back at least to five hundred BC. But the Fon tribe didnt start their practice of using women warriors until the 1600s AD . So I doubt that that the Fon were the source of the Greek myth.