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ASPartOfMe
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28 Mar 2024, 11:40 am

A theory is that we are bad liars. That makes sense because of our atypical body language. Our poor body language reading skills would mean we do not pick up that others are on to us.

Black and White thinking would seem to indicate it is not natural for us. As noted above autistics despite the natural inclination against lie as a survival mechanism. Are we really wired to be honest or is that something we like to tell ourselves? If we are wired to be honest would the need to avoid getting in trouble overcome our natural inclination to the point of lying more than NT’s?


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blitzkrieg
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28 Mar 2024, 11:45 am

honeytoast wrote:
i think im too blunt on here :lol:


honeytoast - blunt? No way! :P



lostonearth35
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28 Mar 2024, 11:56 am

I hate lying. It's not that I've never lied, I'm just not good at it and I hate it. One time when I was a teenager, I made up something to play a trick my brother, and then he mockingly imitated the way I would turn my head away every time I said the fib. When I was a kid I went to a religious school and once believed people who lied went to Hell. Then I saw a Disney cartoon of The Three Little Pigs, where the third pig built a lie detecting machine that he uses on the wolf when the other two pigs go missing, and then later the other two pigs lie about going swimming and get a butt-whooping from the machine. And then the third pig says "This hurts me more than it does you", and then the machine punishes him as well. Which was pretty awesome because that phrase has always been such a lie, but as a kid it made me think both the wolf and the pigs are all going to be roasting on a spit in the underworld. :lol:



BillyTree
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28 Mar 2024, 4:26 pm

I find it hard to lie and I think that's a common autistic trait. I believe autistic people in general are more honest than the average person. Disclaimer: there's an exeption to every rule etc.


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uncommondenominator
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28 Mar 2024, 5:37 pm

While I would agree that autistic individuals are less skilled at lying, some / many can definitely still try to lie. If anything, they just lie differently.



DanielW
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28 Mar 2024, 6:09 pm

uncommondenominator wrote:
While I would agree that autistic individuals are less skilled at lying, some / many can definitely still try to lie. If anything, they just lie differently.


Differently? How do you mean?



uncommondenominator
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29 Mar 2024, 4:31 am

DanielW wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
While I would agree that autistic individuals are less skilled at lying, some / many can definitely still try to lie. If anything, they just lie differently.


Differently? How do you mean?


Lying by omission, exaggerating or downplaying, using half-truths or partial-truths, gaslighting, excuses... not outright lies, but still misrepresentations - usually to avoid trouble or justify behaviors.



DanielW
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29 Mar 2024, 10:20 am

uncommondenominator wrote:
DanielW wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
While I would agree that autistic individuals are less skilled at lying, some / many can definitely still try to lie. If anything, they just lie differently.


Differently? How do you mean?


Lying by omission, exaggerating or downplaying, using half-truths or partial-truths, gaslighting, excuses... not outright lies, but still misrepresentations - usually to avoid trouble or justify behaviors.


That sounds more like a universal behavior, not one exclusive to either group.



Benjamin the Donkey
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29 Mar 2024, 11:19 am

I almost never lie, for 2 reasons.

First, I'm honest and direct by nature. I say what i think, ir say nothing. Lying usually just doesn't occur to me.

Second, lying is difficult for me. I'm just nit good ar it. If I lied in the way many NTs do, I'd get my lies mixed up and very quickly get caught. It's better not to try.


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uncommondenominator
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29 Mar 2024, 4:47 pm

DanielW wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
DanielW wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
While I would agree that autistic individuals are less skilled at lying, some / many can definitely still try to lie. If anything, they just lie differently.


Differently? How do you mean?


Lying by omission, exaggerating or downplaying, using half-truths or partial-truths, gaslighting, excuses... not outright lies, but still misrepresentations - usually to avoid trouble or justify behaviors.


That sounds more like a universal behavior, not one exclusive to either group.


And? So? I never said that any method was exclusive to any one type of person.

However, it does seem to be a common theme that whenever this community talks of autistics and lying, the construct of lying is always presented as the ability to spin complex falsehoods with charm and sophistication, with the autistic lack-of-social-skills used as "proof" that autistics simply "don't lie!" or some similar nonsense - which itself is a deceptive half-truth.

My point was simply that while autistics may not use the outright lies where effectiveness is affected by social skills - although some still do anyways, no matter how obvious or ineffective it is - there are plenty of other ways to lie, which don't rely on complex social skills, and as such are much more utilized by this community. And pretending like the Suave Storyteller is the only type of liar, conveniently ignores all the other forms of lying which still count as lying, whether people want to acknowledge that or not.

Not every lie is a nefarious tapestry woven from silver-tongued stories of fiction - plenty of lies are as simple as "I didn't even DO anything!" - which very seldom turns out to actually be the case.



DanielW
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29 Mar 2024, 5:01 pm

uncommondenominator wrote:
DanielW wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
DanielW wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
While I would agree that autistic individuals are less skilled at lying, some / many can definitely still try to lie. If anything, they just lie differently.


Differently? How do you mean?


Lying by omission, exaggerating or downplaying, using half-truths or partial-truths, gaslighting, excuses... not outright lies, but still misrepresentations - usually to avoid trouble or justify behaviors.


That sounds more like a universal behavior, not one exclusive to either group.


And? So? I never said that any method was exclusive to any one type of person.

However, it does seem to be a common theme that whenever this community talks of autistics and lying, the construct of lying is always presented as the ability to spin complex falsehoods with charm and sophistication, with the autistic lack-of-social-skills used as "proof" that autistics simply "don't lie!" or some similar nonsense - which itself is a deceptive half-truth.

My point was simply that while autistics may not use the outright lies where effectiveness is affected by social skills - although some still do anyways, no matter how obvious or ineffective it is - there are plenty of other ways to lie, which don't rely on complex social skills, and as such are much more utilized by this community. And pretending like the Suave Storyteller is the only type of liar, conveniently ignores all the other forms of lying which still count as lying, whether people want to acknowledge that or not.

Not every lie is a nefarious tapestry woven from silver-tongued stories of fiction - plenty of lies are as simple as "I didn't even DO anything!" - which very seldom turns out to actually be the case.


You said previously that autistics lie differently that those who are not. Your explanation as to how that was so, says that they lie like everyone else does too, which make it seem that it isn't different at all. And as to being less able to spin elaborate lies, I know plenty of neuro-typical people who as just as incapable - so it appears that your own opinion proves there is no real difference. Which is a shame. I was intrigued by your earlier post.



TwilightPrincess
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29 Mar 2024, 7:04 pm

Perhaps overall autistics are less likely to engage in complex lies that involve a high degree of charm and social skills to pull off and are more likely to engage in lying by omission, misrepresenting, downplaying, saying I didn’t mean that, and any number of other things that are easy to pull off socially to get them out of trouble or to justify their behavior.


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hmk66
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29 Mar 2024, 8:06 pm

babybird wrote:
I'm blunt. I have no interest and nothing to gain in trying to deceive people

I only lie, deceive and manipulate people, if they trying to manipulate or gaslight me, and I want to avoid that.

In most of the cases there is no reason to lie, so I will be honest then.



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29 Mar 2024, 8:12 pm

Benjamin the Donkey wrote:
I almost never lie, for 2 reasons.

First, I'm honest and direct by nature. I say what i think, ir say nothing. Lying usually just doesn't occur to me.

Second, lying is difficult for me. I'm just nit good ar it. If I lied in the way many NTs do, I'd get my lies mixed up and very quickly get caught. It's better not to try.

For the same reason, being honest is way easier than lying. Therefore I am honest most of the time.

Being silent about something is a non-verbal way of lying. I lie, that there would be nothing wrong.



bee33
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29 Mar 2024, 8:36 pm

Some people lie very casually, with aplomb. For instance if they're late they might say "There was an accident on the freeway" or "The bus broke down," and it's so seamless it doesn't even occur to someone like me that it might be a lie. I think that's the kind of lie we are talking about when we say that people on the spectrum are less likely to lie.

I think that omissions that avoid having to explain one's medical history, which one would have to do to be absolutely truthful, are not lies. That's splitting hairs to call them lies. If that's the kind of "lying" that someone does and not the other kind, they are not liars and can even claim to be incapable of lying.



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29 Mar 2024, 9:20 pm

These are good questions:

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Are we really wired to be honest or is that something we like to tell ourselves? If we are wired to be honest would the need to avoid getting in trouble overcome our natural inclination to the point of lying more than NT’s?

There might be a bit of both going on. Maybe it’s something we like to tell ourselves AND a means for some to avoid getting in trouble.

bee33 wrote:
I think that omissions that avoid having to explain one's medical history, which one would have to do to be absolutely truthful, are not lies. That's splitting hairs to call them lies. If that's the kind of "lying" that someone does and not the other kind, they are not liars and can even claim to be incapable of lying.

No, I was mostly referring to more manipulative behavior than that. Based on the behavior of certain members of WP over the years (some of whom are no longer here), it would seem that many autistics are more than capable of lying.

We have a certain sticky for a reason although those are extreme examples. It’s not been that uncommon for people to exhibit less extreme behavior that’s dishonest, manipulative, and, at times, hurtful nonetheless.

Autistics often engage in behavior that is similar to other humans. We just aren’t so good at stuff that requires strong social skills although sometimes attempts are still made.


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