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belijojo
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11 May 2024, 1:53 am

Israeli representatives publicly shredded the UN Charter, reminiscent of Gaddafi


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roronoa79
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13 May 2024, 10:30 am

The rules seem very unfair to the country that has been allowed to ignore the rules for as long as it has existed.

The spoiled child is being forced to grow up and realize that mommy and daddy (USA and Israeli allies) are not going to always be there to bail you out when you openly flaunt the rules. The spoiled child might have to learn to treat others like equals. The spoiled child might have to learn that even your enablers will get fed up with defending you when you bully people then play the victim when they fight back.

America and Israel are two spoiled little birds of a feather who feel oppressed when they are held to the same standard that they hold others.


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Δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν.
Those with power do what their power permits, and the weak can only acquiesce.

- Thucydides


ToughDiamond
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14 May 2024, 1:39 am

My worry is that America, because it isn't helping Israel out of the goodness of its heart, won't get seriously tough until it perceives severe problems for itself if it doesn't.

Meanwhile the UK intends to do nothing about it. Probably because Washington has told them not to. It doesn't much matter in practical terms because the UK is such a poor, small country, but there remains the matter of principle. Most UK voters are probably more concerned about their own economic woes.



Jono
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15 May 2024, 7:37 am

roronoa79 wrote:
The rules seem very unfair to the country that has been allowed to ignore the rules for as long as it has existed.

The spoiled child is being forced to grow up and realize that mommy and daddy (USA and Israeli allies) are not going to always be there to bail you out when you openly flaunt the rules. The spoiled child might have to learn to treat others like equals. The spoiled child might have to learn that even your enablers will get fed up with defending you when you bully people then play the victim when they fight back.

America and Israel are two spoiled little birds of a feather who feel oppressed when they are held to the same standard that they hold others.


At least the UN recognises Israel as a state. You don't even believe that Israel should be a country (and it's the only country in the world where people question whether or not it should exist, regardless of their conduct). So, questioning whether or not it should exist as a country is not holding it to the same standards as everyone else, it's an outright discrimination that no other country has to face.



roronoa79
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15 May 2024, 10:38 am

Jono wrote:
At least the UN recognises Israel as a state. You don't even believe that Israel should be a country (and it's the only country in the world where people question whether or not it should exist, regardless of their conduct). So, questioning whether or not it should exist as a country is not holding it to the same standards as everyone else, it's an outright discrimination that no other country has to face.

Israel is not the only country this standard has ever been applied to. Consider Rhodesia, or or apartheid South Africa (both white supremacist countries Israel supported--something Zionists are keen to forget). Such countries, as they existed, should not have existed, because they defined themselves by the one group's supremacy over all others within those countries. Israel is defined by the supremacy of religious Jews over everyone else who has ever lived there. Are you an ethnic Jew who converted to Christianity or Islam before 1948? Then you don't deserve rights the same as religious Jews! You don't even deserve to live where your ancestors have for 3000+ years. These are the premises on which Israel is founded.

People apply this standard to all kinds of countries. Russia should not exist as it does, because it is a continuation of the Tsar's colonial empire. China should not exist as it does, because it is a continuation of Imperial China's Han supremacism. America (my country) should not exist as it does either. A new constitution is the bare minimum. I could list more countries if I wanted.

People direct their energy more at places like Israel and white-ruled South Africa, because it is easier to dismantle such petty settler-colonial states than it is to dismantle superpowers. Such countries were upheld in part by the US, so anti-Zionist Americans can more easily undermine such countries, because they can change the policy of their own country which they do not want to support Israel.

And because Zionist rhetoric and logic is sometimes.......questionable, I feel the need to disclaim: I am a quarter Jewish. My sister is Jewish. I consider converting on a daily basis. It's a beautiful religion whose people share a proud heritage. I love Jews. Which is why I hate Israel. Israel is a pox on the Jewish people. Israel sows hatred and death for the world's Jews. It sows hatred between the sons of Abraham for its own gain.


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Δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν.
Those with power do what their power permits, and the weak can only acquiesce.

- Thucydides


ASPartOfMe
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15 May 2024, 2:09 pm

What was successfully demanded in South Africa was regime change not that the country should not exist.

The country that Israel is most compared to these days is Nazi Germany. There was never any real notion that because the Germans embraced Nazism that Germany should not exist.

Most every American including the protesters are living on land racial cleansed of the indigenous population. That population is still living on reservations. Half the country had apartheid for over 100 years and most of the country has had separation of some sort. Some Americans do recognize this and believe radical to revolutionary changes are needed. What I have not heard much if any of is that because of this America as a country should not exist and the American identity should not exist. Decolonization for thee, not for me.

But it is true that the notion that countries should not exist does happen. Russia does not recognize Ukraine, China does not recognize Taiwan, Israelis did not recognize Palestine for the first 40 years or so, the right still doesn’t, and parts of the center and left also.


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roronoa79
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15 May 2024, 5:16 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
What was successfully demanded in South Africa was regime change not that the country should not exist.

White South Africans certainly did not see things that way. South Africa was a 'Whites First' country. Any change to that was, to them, a fundamental attack on South Africa's right to exist as a nation. Such was the desire among white South Africans to make their country fundamentally white, that they forced many black populations into impoverished Bantustans that were never meant to be equal nations to White South Africa, much the same way how, to Zionists, Palestine was never intended to be an equal nation to Israel. Israel gave itself most of the coastline, access to both the Red and Mediterranean Sea, most of the arable land, and most major economic centers. Palestinians got a disjointed, arid, gerrymandered non-state which exists solely at Israel's mercy.

I want Israel to not exist in that I want a single state that is not named Israel (a name which intentionally implies Jewish supremacy) where Jews and everyone else are equals. I want a state that includes all of historic Palestine. I want a state that throws the Israeli constitution in the trash. This is unacceptable to Zionism, which will only accept a religious-supremacist state for Jews and (at most) a 'separate but equal' state for non-Jews.

Quote:
The country that Israel is most compared to these days is Nazi Germany. There was never any real notion that because the Germans embraced Nazism that Germany should not exist.

Germany existed before Nazism. Germany was not founded by the forcible eviction of non-ethnic Germans from within Germany. As with virtually all nations, Germany is predicated on a degree of nationalism--but you don't see many Germans nowadays acting like Germans are fundamentally unsafe as long as they have to share the same rights as German Jews, Poles, Roma, Netherlanders, etc.
And (though it certainly wasn't the majority opinion) the horrors committed by the racial supremacist state of Nazi Germany very much made some people want to dismember Germany permanently for fear that they could not be trusted to not make an ethnic supremacist state. Germany suffered partition for almost 50 bitter, humiliating years. At least they kind of deserved it.

Quote:
Most every American including the protesters are living on land racial cleansed of the indigenous population. That population is still living on reservations. Half the country had apartheid for over 100 years and most of the country has had separation of some sort. Some Americans do recognize this and believe radical to revolutionary changes are needed. What I have not heard much if any of is that because of this America as a country should not exist and the American identity should not exist. Decolonization for thee, not for me.

Indeed. Radical change was needed, and more still is needed. Most if not all of this land should (and will) be given back to the natives. America, as I said, should not exist as it does. Maybe it will be replaced with the same borders with a new name and constitution, maybe it will be a federation, maybe multiple countries. People differ on the specifics.
As for the "American identity", i do believe it needs to fundamentally change, because currently far too much of it is nationalism masquerading as patriotism. So no, decolonisation for thee as well as me.

This is also a strange argument from any supporter of Israel, given how, historically, Israel's stance on colonial conflicts has been "national self-determination for me, not for thee". Portugal's colonies want independence? Israel is happy to help Portugal gun them down. Blacks in Rhodesia are rising up against the white minority government? Israel is, again, happy to help white colonizers gun down those they rule over. South Africa and Israel were best buddies for the longest time, because Israel felt it had more in common with white supremacist colonizers than it has in common with an indigenous population that has been there for millennia. Israel wanted to live in a world where Africans were second-class citizens in their own homeland, and was willing to sell guns and ammo to keep it that way. Zionists in my experience can offer no meaningful defense or explanation for these actions. Israel cares nothing for any historically oppressed group except Jews--but I find it harder and harder to believe Israel even cares about them, given the regime's cozying up to anti-Semitic agitators like Órban.


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I guess I just wasn't made for these times.
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Δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν.
Those with power do what their power permits, and the weak can only acquiesce.

- Thucydides


slam_thunderhide
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17 May 2024, 6:44 am

ToughDiamond wrote:
My worry is that America, because it isn't helping Israel out of the goodness of its heart, won't get seriously tough until it perceives severe problems for itself if it doesn't.

Meanwhile the UK intends to do nothing about it. Probably because Washington has told them not to. It doesn't much matter in practical terms because the UK is such a poor, small country, but there remains the matter of principle. Most UK voters are probably more concerned about their own economic woes.


As a Brit, I have plenty of criticisms over what our elite have done to our country, but I'd just like to respond to this second paragraph, lol.

The UK might be small geographically, but it's the 6th largest economy in the world, and even in terms of population it's 21st out of about 190.

If the UK is such a 'poor, small country' then so are about 90% of the other countries in the world.

I'd rather live in my neighbourhood in the UK than in inner city Detroit, that's for sure.



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19 May 2024, 2:33 am

I am wondering why France is permitted to continue to use lethal force in 2024 against native people in New Caledonia? Didn't France use illegal methods to occupy an independent people and resettle an island thousands of miles from France in the Pacific with French citizens? I am sure if Hawaiians take up arms against the illegal occupation of their kingdom by the United States then they too will face lethal retribution from the US army stationed there.

No sanctions against France? Aren't they also using same tactics as the state of Israel?
Meanwhile native Hawaiians are being slowly absorbed which is a covert form of genocide to ensure their voices are effectively drowned out.



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19 May 2024, 3:20 am

I think the fact that no one is calling for the destruction of the US or Canada or Australia should maybe be viewed as proof that Israel can be acknowledged as a colonial settler state in many regards without that automatically meaning that therefore Israel lacks any legitimacy and shouldn't continue to exist in any form.

It seems like often the question of whether or not Israel should be an ethno-state is also conflated with whether or not Israel should exist, given that Israel would almost certainly serve as the basis for a future single-state solution.

Decolonization doesn't inherently mean the removal of colonial settlers or their descendants, it ultimately means rebuilding the power structure. While attempts at this have often shortsightedly focused on punishing the descendents of colonizers broadly, when they're just replaced by people loyal to the new strongman nothing really changes in terms of exploitation and power imbalance.

I don't believe that every argument that could be used to question Israel's legitimacy is used with that intent, but the fact that it seems to be a very tender point for those who sympathize with the Israeli right shows that they themselves understand that it's not an entirely invalid angle. Those who advocated for the creation of the modern Israeli state understood it as a colonial adventure* that would involve displacing the rightful owners of the land and that they would have every justification to resist this by any means available to them.

It just seems like they'd like everyone to accept we stole it fair and square and move on like theft stops being theft after awhile. Then again, I get it; I'd be insecure about the legitimacy of my ownership over a car that I stole, even if it happened many years ago. Especially if the previous owner kept telling everyone I stole his car and trying to whoop me and only lacked any means to do anything effective because I bought off the police and had a bunch of shooters.

But hey, it's my car because it used to be my granddad's. Legend has it he stole it too, killed the owner and did some nasty stuff to the owner's kids. 8)

*actual quote


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19 May 2024, 3:40 am

funeralxempire wrote:
I don't believe that every argument that could be used to question Israel's legitimacy is used with that intent, but the fact that it seems to be a very tender point for those who sympathize with the Israeli right shows that they themselves understand that it's not an entirely invalid angle. Those who advocated for the creation of the modern Israeli state understood it as a colonial adventure* that would involve displacing the rightful owners of the land and that they would have every justification to resist this by any means available to them.


And here you have it. It only took 8 months from Oct 7th 2023 to fill in the blanks. the state of Israel does not exist because of zionism. it exists because of the Balfour declaration which the British empire meant that the Palestinians faced the prospect of being outnumbered by unlimited immigration, and of losing control of Palestine to the Zionist drive for sole sovereignty over a country that was then almost completely Arab in population and culture



funeralxempire
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19 May 2024, 4:16 am

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I don't believe that every argument that could be used to question Israel's legitimacy is used with that intent, but the fact that it seems to be a very tender point for those who sympathize with the Israeli right shows that they themselves understand that it's not an entirely invalid angle. Those who advocated for the creation of the modern Israeli state understood it as a colonial adventure* that would involve displacing the rightful owners of the land and that they would have every justification to resist this by any means available to them.


And here you have it. It only took 8 months from Oct 7th 2023 to fill in the blanks. the state of Israel does not exist because of zionism. it exists because of the Balfour declaration which the British empire meant that the Palestinians faced the prospect of being outnumbered by unlimited immigration, and of losing control of Palestine to the Zionist drive for sole sovereignty over a country that was then almost completely Arab in population and culture


The colonial adventure quote is from Vladimir Jabotinsky.


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19 May 2024, 4:47 am

Yep, I got sidetracked before I could enter the source

Meanwhile France has suspended tik tok to stop New Caledonians from getting the news
Sounds like the Israelis could learn a thing from the colonial OGs



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19 May 2024, 7:47 am

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I don't believe that every argument that could be used to question Israel's legitimacy is used with that intent, but the fact that it seems to be a very tender point for those who sympathize with the Israeli right shows that they themselves understand that it's not an entirely invalid angle. Those who advocated for the creation of the modern Israeli state understood it as a colonial adventure* that would involve displacing the rightful owners of the land and that they would have every justification to resist this by any means available to them.


And here you have it. It only took 8 months from Oct 7th 2023 to fill in the blanks. the state of Israel does not exist because of zionism. it exists because of the Balfour declaration which the British empire meant that the Palestinians faced the prospect of being outnumbered by unlimited immigration, and of losing control of Palestine to the Zionist drive for sole sovereignty over a country that was then almost completely Arab in population and culture

you're making a distinction without a difference. The Balfour Resolution was created by the Brits in response to pressure from the Zionist movement.



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19 May 2024, 12:07 pm

slam_thunderhide wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
My worry is that America, because it isn't helping Israel out of the goodness of its heart, won't get seriously tough until it perceives severe problems for itself if it doesn't.

Meanwhile the UK intends to do nothing about it. Probably because Washington has told them not to. It doesn't much matter in practical terms because the UK is such a poor, small country, but there remains the matter of principle. Most UK voters are probably more concerned about their own economic woes.


As a Brit, I have plenty of criticisms over what our elite have done to our country, but I'd just like to respond to this second paragraph, lol.

The UK might be small geographically, but it's the 6th largest economy in the world, and even in terms of population it's 21st out of about 190.

If the UK is such a 'poor, small country' then so are about 90% of the other countries in the world.

I'd rather live in my neighbourhood in the UK than in inner city Detroit, that's for sure.

I meant poor and small compared to the USA. There's some evidence from the context, but maybe I should have been more explicit. But sure, people cling to the outsides of Channel Tunnel trains and cross the English Channel in dangerous little boats to get to the UK. I've often thought that if they're willing to take those risks just for a chance to get to such a cash-strapped dystopia, what in the world must it be like where they came from? It's all relative.



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19 May 2024, 11:32 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
you're making a distinction without a difference. The Balfour Resolution was created by the Brits in response to pressure from the Zionist movement.


Granted. But the current dilemma is 90% of Jews who migrated to Israel post 1948 came as refugees from persecution. they neither endorse zionism or the British empire who ultimately facilitated the creation of the state. For all we know, Lord Balfour probably thought he was being a humanitarian.

I cannot be comfortable with Palestinians who think Oct 7th is somehow justified.

Its like justifying the 9-11 terrorists who were motivated by US foreign interference in the middle east. European colonists in the US and Australia came as hungry tired masses into countries where native population was decimated to make way for them. Wishing ill on Jewish civilians because of the actions of their government is like blaming Palestinians for HAMAS. taking sides is not logical when clearly Europeans did exactly he same thing as Israel to take over large tracts of the world they still own.