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TwilightPrincess
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08 Jun 2024, 10:37 pm

I think prisons should be less about punishment and more about rehabilitation…for most folks. When rehabilitation is not possible, keeping people in a humane environment where they can’t hurt others seems reasonable. I wouldn’t want anything horrible to happen to my ex if he ever does go to jail (again) for his behavior which seems likely.


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funeralxempire
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08 Jun 2024, 10:47 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I just didn't like the word "morality" applied to me / non-offenders.


I don't think it's really an issue of personal morality, but of a society's morality.

An unjust society makes all of us complicit it a lot of things without it necessarily saying a lot about the individual morality of the people within that society.

I don't mean to be harsh or judgey or condescending, especially in light of the rest of what you said.


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funeralxempire
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08 Jun 2024, 10:49 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
When rehabilitation is not possible, keeping people in a humane environment where they can’t hurt others seems reasonable.


I'd wonder if treating them more like patients who refuse to recognize they have additional issues might be more humane, or ultimately would end up leading to a greater loss of rights with little benefit.


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IsabellaLinton
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08 Jun 2024, 10:52 pm

It's OK.

When I said I don't care where they go, I mean that.
I mean that I trust the courts to make the right decision.
If they belong in psych, I trust their judgment.
If they belong in solitary, I trust that too.

My only concern with offenders is that they don't reoffend.

I wish the victim's psychological status was also part of sentencing.
What if the victim is NPD or ASPD or any other subgroup?
What if they're autistic or had PTSD prior to the crime?

I don't hear many people worry about that, or their rights.


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MatchboxVagabond
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08 Jun 2024, 11:18 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
From what I remember, the defense is tried in less than a percent of cases and it's rarely effective just due to the belief that all criminals have some degree of mental illness and being found not guilty by reason of insanity is getting off the hook for committing the crime. .


I've never gotten how going to padded cage with more doctors and fewer guards is somehow "getting off the hook" compared to a concrete cage with fewer doctors.

Either way it's a cage, but the former is more likely to be able to hold someone indefinitely as well as be more likely to provide the actual care they need.

TBH, I don't either, there's a bunch of medications involved with being in the lockdown ward and typically the duration is based on how long the doctors think you should be there, which may well be longer than the prison term would have been. But, there's a bunch of blood thirsty people in the general public for whom nothing shy of capital punishment is ever really enough.

That being said, at least in theory, one is supposed to be therapeutic and the other is supposed to be punishment. Although IMHO, anybody that can be treated and released probably should be. It's mostly the hardcore reoffenders that that's not going to work for.



TwilightPrincess
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08 Jun 2024, 11:18 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
When rehabilitation is not possible, keeping people in a humane environment where they can’t hurt others seems reasonable.


I'd wonder if treating them more like patients who refuse to recognize they have additional issues might be more humane, or ultimately would end up leading to a greater loss of rights with little benefit.

Treating them more like patients could be a step up from treating them like they are criminals. It seems like people dehumanize criminals which could explain why there’s little interest in prison reform.

It’s not something I’ve thought about too much. I just want the horrifying stuff that happens in prison to stop happening. I’m sure it would make it even more difficult for people to turn their life around (or whatever) if they are traumatized by their time behind bars.


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MatchboxVagabond
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08 Jun 2024, 11:21 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
It's OK.

When I said I don't care where they go, I mean that.
I mean that I trust the courts to make the right decision.
If they belong in psych, I trust their judgment.
If they belong in solitary, I trust that too.

My only concern with offenders is that they don't reoffend.

I wish the victim's psychological status was also part of sentencing.
What if the victim is NPD or ASPD or any other subgroup?
What if they're autistic or had PTSD prior to the crime?

I don't hear many people worry about that, or their rights.

TBH, a lot of that seems to be that there's a significant minority of the population that's every bit as horrible as those folks are, but for one reason or the other lack the stones to do it themselves. Or, maybe they're out of touch with reality on that count. But, in any case there's far more interest in brutal punishment than what's good for the convict, society or in the interests of whatever parties were harmed by the crimes.

Those folks have always been around, the fact that it's now a minority means that eventually the decision of hospital versus prison will be based on what reduces crime and the number of lives ruined by crime.

I think the reason why it's not talked about is that it's somewhat questionable in terms of the constitutionality, although I do think that it's probably something that does get factored in when the reports about the sentencing recommendations are made.

EDIT: I don't understand why we can't feel compassion for everybody involved and make decisions based on reducing future crimes and respecting the humanity of those harmed as well.



TwilightPrincess
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08 Jun 2024, 11:43 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I wish the victim's psychological status was also part of sentencing.
What if the victim is NPD or ASPD or any other subgroup?
What if they're autistic or had PTSD prior to the crime?

I don't hear many people worry about that, or their rights.

I think there needs to be more resources for victims. People who are victims of certain crimes often experience a life sentence of their own. They often have trouble maintaining employment and end up in poverty among other things. Given that fact, there needs to be more resources/programs to help them.

However, I don’t really think that a victim’s prior psychological status should have much bearing on sentencing. Psychological status can prevent someone from being able to give informed consent. That’s not really about sentencing though. It’s more about finding someone guilty or not guilty of specific charges.

Prison sentences aren’t about making people feel better. They’re about punishment, rehabilitation, and public safety.


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09 Jun 2024, 3:00 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I wish the victim's psychological status was also part of sentencing.
What if the victim is NPD or ASPD or any other subgroup?
What if they're autistic or had PTSD prior to the crime?

I don't hear many people worry about that, or their rights.
Yes, it is strange -- a travesty, really -- that some people will raise a ruckus about criminals being "victims of society" no matter what their crimes may be, but don't seem to give a damn about the criminals' victims -- the ones who really need to be cared for.


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09 Jun 2024, 4:15 am

John Hinckley was kept for decades in a mental hospital, but was spared a lifetime prison sentence, for shooting a POTUS because he was judged "not guilty by reason of insanity". From what I gather he was (after decades) kinda "rehabilitated" and or "cured". They let him out to see movies and visit folks these days.

But the normal way of thinking is that someone like ...Ted Bundy "knows right from wrong" but does evil anyway. And the same with someone like Bernie Madoff who stole billions and wiped out life savings. So they deserve to be punished.. With Bundy maybe by the death penalty.

So the debate is whether to punish them, or whether to just warehouse them so they cant do harm. But you are proposing applying a medical model implying that someone like Bundy or Madoff can be "cured" or "rehabilitated" which is absurd. Folks with those conditions cant be changed or cured. Now you could argue that folks like Bundy or Madoff committed crimes because they had "the mental disorder" of psychopathy, or whatever, therefore that makes them "not responsible" for their crimes. And maybe thats true on some level. But since such individuals cant be "cured" of their disorders there is no point in applying a medical model to their incarceration. They would not be "patients" in any sense. Their captors would not be medical doctors. They would not be getting "treatment". They would be inmates. If you eliminate the death penalty then they would be, what they are now, just human toxic waste being stored in a warehouse so they cant do further harm. And serving such a life sentence would also be de facto "punishment". So they will still be being "punished".

So you proposing a radical rethinking about NPD and ASPD folks...that would result in no practical change whatsoever in how society deals with them AFAICS.



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09 Jun 2024, 4:34 am

FranzOren wrote:

Another issue is that people with severe or profound Narcissistic Personality Disorder or severe or profound Antisocial Personality Disorder with psychopathic features might be legally sane and competent to stand trial. Still, they have this strange nihilistic delusional view of this world. When they commit crimes, many also have a delusion that rules don't apply to them, due to disregard for right and wrong, and also black and withe thinking, with no grounds for the middle ground.

I hope you guys understand where I am coming from with this issue.


People with a delusion that the rules don't apply to them are the most dangerous criminals of all, and absolutely should be punished in my opinion.



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09 Jun 2024, 6:40 am

Fnord wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
I wish the victim's psychological status was also part of sentencing.
What if the victim is NPD or ASPD or any other subgroup?
What if they're autistic or had PTSD prior to the crime?

I don't hear many people worry about that, or their rights.
Yes, it is strange -- a travesty, really -- that some people will raise a ruckus about criminals being "victims of society" no matter what their crimes may be, but don't seem to give a damn about the criminals' victims -- the ones who really need to be cared for.

It seems like other people present it as a false dichotomy and are suggesting that one can either care about victims OR rehabilitation/the conditions in prison, not both. It’s very strange, and I think it’s why prison reform hasn’t happened even though the US criminal justice system and that of many other places is highly ineffective.

Obviously, not all criminals can be rehabilitated and should be kept away from folks they can harm, but I don’t think that treating people inhumanely in the interest of “punishment” is good for anyone.


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09 Jun 2024, 7:49 am

I am sorry for my late response, I was sleeping last night. You guys actually made good points.



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09 Jun 2024, 11:39 am

TwilightPrincess wrote:
Fnord wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
I wish the victim's psychological status was also part of sentencing.
What if the victim is NPD or ASPD or any other subgroup?
What if they're autistic or had PTSD prior to the crime?

I don't hear many people worry about that, or their rights.
Yes, it is strange -- a travesty, really -- that some people will raise a ruckus about criminals being "victims of society" no matter what their crimes may be, but don't seem to give a damn about the criminals' victims -- the ones who really need to be cared for.

It seems like other people present it as a false dichotomy and are suggesting that one can either care about victims OR rehabilitation/the conditions in prison, not both. It’s very strange, and I think it’s why prison reform hasn’t happened even though the US criminal justice system and that of many other places is highly ineffective.

Obviously, not all criminals can be rehabilitated and should be kept away from folks they can harm, but I don’t think that treating people inhumanely in the interest of “punishment” is good for anyone.

A lot of it comes down to the notion that we don't really know what's going on in people's heads and it tends to raise troubling questions for most people when they have to think about the possibility that some people might not have control over it. I remember years ago a guy killed a neighboring family and burned the house to the ground while allegedly blacked out. Being blacked out, even if true, is not considered a justification for hospitalization, you have to be so impacted by a condition that you don't understand that what you're doing is wrong, not knowing that you're doing it, or doing it because some space aliens told you isn't good enough, even where it can be proven to be what was in the person's mind when they committed the crime.

It's probably the inevitable result of a system of justice that focuses on punishment and if somebody didn't know they were doing it, or lacked control, that just raises questions that the system isn't set up to deal with.



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09 Jun 2024, 5:12 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
Fnord wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
I wish the victim's psychological status was also part of sentencing.
What if the victim is NPD or ASPD or any other subgroup?
What if they're autistic or had PTSD prior to the crime?

I don't hear many people worry about that, or their rights.
Yes, it is strange -- a travesty, really -- that some people will raise a ruckus about criminals being "victims of society" no matter what their crimes may be, but don't seem to give a damn about the criminals' victims -- the ones who really need to be cared for.

It seems like other people present it as a false dichotomy and are suggesting that one can either care about victims OR rehabilitation/the conditions in prison, not both. It’s very strange, and I think it’s why prison reform hasn’t happened even though the US criminal justice system and that of many other places is highly ineffective.

Obviously, not all criminals can be rehabilitated and should be kept away from folks they can harm, but I don’t think that treating people inhumanely in the interest of “punishment” is good for anyone.

A lot of it comes down to the notion that we don't really know what's going on in people's heads and it tends to raise troubling questions for most people when they have to think about the possibility that some people might not have control over it. I remember years ago a guy killed a neighboring family and burned the house to the ground while allegedly blacked out. Being blacked out, even if true, is not considered a justification for hospitalization, you have to be so impacted by a condition that you don't understand that what you're doing is wrong, not knowing that you're doing it, or doing it because some space aliens told you isn't good enough, even where it can be proven to be what was in the person's mind when they committed the crime.

It's probably the inevitable result of a system of justice that focuses on punishment and if somebody didn't know they were doing it, or lacked control, that just raises questions that the system isn't set up to deal with.



Thar is what I am trying to talk about.



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09 Jun 2024, 10:30 pm

Jails aren't supposed to be for punishing people, they're supposed to be for keeping law-abiding people safe from criminals. Reckless drivers, murderers, thieves, bullies, politicians... they all need to be brought to justice.