Questions about friendship
Hello everyone.
I’ve read opinions on various pages and in some books (from non-autistic people) that claim it’s difficult to befriend someone with autism. To me, that seems like an exaggeration, and it’s highly subjective.
I’d like to know what you think about this topic, and I’ll ask directly: How does someone become your friend?
For me, I enjoy conversations, especially when they’re interesting for both parties. It’s also great when you share interests with the other person. That motivates me to establish a friendship.
_________________
Let’s chat. Send me a message if you’d like.
I think that establishing a friendship, for anyone, is a subtle thing. Sometimes you can have great conversations with someone and yet it doesn't turn into a friendship. Or you can see someone often and chat with them in a friendly way, but they still don't become anything more than a friendly acquaintance. On the other hand, sometimes you meet someone and you are just friends right away, though it's been so long since that happened to me that I don't recall it at all and couldn't name an instance when it happened.
All in all, I think friendship and making friends is very very difficult. Perhaps worse with autism, but I don't know.
ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,489
Location: Long Island, New York
Welcome to Wrong Planet
There is the double empathy theory that unlike what you read does not put all the blame on autistics.
Milton’s ‘double Empathy Problem’: A Summary for Non-academics
Most non-autistic people think of Autistic people as ‘lacking empathy’ and having impaired ‘theory of mind’ (that is, understanding another person’s state of mind). Thus, the diagnostic criteria for Autism includes ‘reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect’ and ‘absence of interest in peers’. This perspective means that non-autistic people often view Autism as a defect.
Dr Damian Milton is an Autistic academic and father. He proposes a different interpretation for the disconnection between Autistic and non-autistic people, which he calls the ‘double empathy problem’.
The ‘double empathy problem’
Milton’s theory of ‘double empathy’ proposes that Autistic people do not lack empathy.
Milton argues that Autistic people experience the world and express emotions differently to non-autistic people. We communicate, experience and display emotions, interact with others, form relationships, and sense the world around us, differently to non-autistics. That doesn’t mean that we don’t have emotions or feel empathy.
But it makes it difficult for non-autistic people to understand and to empathise with us. And us with them.
Autistic differences lead to different life experiences, which create a kind of empathy divide.
So, just as it could be said that Autistic people lack ‘social insight’ into non-autistic culture and communication, it could also be said that non-autistic people lack ‘social insight’ into Autistic culture and communication.
Milton calls this disconnect a ‘double problem’, because both Autistic and non-autistic people experience a lack of understanding for the other group.
In other words, empathy is a ‘two-way street’.
The impact of the double empathy problem
The empathy divide is experienced by both Autistic and non-autistic individuals. But these groups are not equally affected by the divide.
Because the non-autistic way of communicating and empathising is the typical, expected way, it is accepted as ‘normal’ and ‘correct’ by most people.
That means that the atypical, unexpected ways in which Autistic people communicate and empathise are often rejected as ‘different’ and ‘incorrect’.
Milton suggests that many non-autistic people assume that their majority, familiar way of empathising is superior or preferable to the Autistic way.
This perception has meant that non-autistic people often expect Autistic people to learn non-autistic culture and communication. Indeed, Autistic people are frequently given ‘treatment plans’ to help them to understand non-autistic perspectives.
But non-autistic people do not expect themselves to understand or learn Autistic perspectives.
Milton’s point is that we could see non-autistic people as lacking empathy for Autistic people.
What does that look like in action?
An everyday example of a non-autistic lack of empathy for Autistic experiences is the reaction from non-autistic people when we mention we are Autistic. Often, the automatic response from non-autistic individuals is, ‘we are all a bit on the spectrum’.
The non-autistic person’s response is usually intended empathetically. It is meant to ‘normalise’ our Autistic experience.
But this non-autistic response presumes that Autistics don’t want to be Autistic (since, doubtless, the non-autistic person does not want to be Autistic themselves).
Rather than empathetic, then, this response is highly offensive to the Autistic community since it undermines Autistic experience, authenticity, and identity.
Returning to Milton’s essay, we note that Autistic individuals say that, in fact, it is they who have been expected to make – and have actually made – the greater effort to understand the feelings of the non-autistic population.
‘One could say that many autistic people have indeed gained a greater level of insight into NT [non-autistic] society and mores than vice versa, perhaps due to the need to survive and potentially thrive in a NT culture. Conversely, the NT person has no pertinent personal requirement to understand the mind of the “autistic person” unless closely related socially in some way,’ Milton explains.
The value of the double empathy theory
The value of Milton’s theory is that it challenges the notion that Autistic people lack ‘theory of mind’. It reframes the disjunct between Autistic and non-autistic communities. We don’t need to think of superior and inferior ways of being. Instead we can see our co-existence as reliant on reciprocity and mutuality.
Autistic empathy is no less compassionate, no less thoughtful, no less ‘human’ than non-autistic empathy: it is simply different.
I find there is a lot of truth to what was said in the essay. My issue is that while we are autistic that is not all who we are. There is a popular saying in the autistic community “When you have met one autistic person, you have met one autistic person”. That saying is true for any group of people.
What the essay shows is that in general autistic people and non autistic people are going to have difficulty communicating. But communication between an autistic and non autistic is not in general, it is between two individuals.
In conclusion the double empathy problem and its negative consequences for autistics is something to be aware of but do not assume it will be the determining factor. If two people with similar interests and temperament meet the double empathy problem is likely to be a non or minor factor.
_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
This is why I've never managed (or even tried very hard) to form friendships with non-autistic people.
The claim that it's "difficult to form friendships with autistic people" is clearly aimed towards NTs. In my opinion it may be true, but the person making it difficult is usually the NT. Friendship requires understanding, and most NTs don't understand us, while we are forced to understand NTs.
_________________
Diagnosed ASD/ADHD age 5. Finally understood that age 17.
Have very strong opinions so sorry if I offend anyone--I still respect your opinion.
Neutral pronouns preferred but anything is fine.
Feel free to PM me--I like to talk about most things other than sports.
I would define someone as my friend if I could contact them randomly to say hi (for example send a text message) without it seeming strange.
By that definition I have very few friends. I am friendly with my work colleagues but they are probably not my actual friends because I would never just text them to say hi.
I think friendships build over time. I am ok at conversation skills but rarely get to the point of being friends as it’s difficult for me to be my true self around people,
There is the double empathy theory that unlike what you read does not put all the blame on autistics.
Milton’s ‘double Empathy Problem’: A Summary for Non-academics
Most non-autistic people think of Autistic people as ‘lacking empathy’ and having impaired ‘theory of mind’ (that is, understanding another person’s state of mind). Thus, the diagnostic criteria for Autism includes ‘reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect’ and ‘absence of interest in peers’. This perspective means that non-autistic people often view Autism as a defect.
Dr Damian Milton is an Autistic academic and father. He proposes a different interpretation for the disconnection between Autistic and non-autistic people, which he calls the ‘double empathy problem’.
The ‘double empathy problem’
Milton’s theory of ‘double empathy’ proposes that Autistic people do not lack empathy.
Milton argues that Autistic people experience the world and express emotions differently to non-autistic people. We communicate, experience and display emotions, interact with others, form relationships, and sense the world around us, differently to non-autistics. That doesn’t mean that we don’t have emotions or feel empathy.
But it makes it difficult for non-autistic people to understand and to empathise with us. And us with them.
Autistic differences lead to different life experiences, which create a kind of empathy divide.
So, just as it could be said that Autistic people lack ‘social insight’ into non-autistic culture and communication, it could also be said that non-autistic people lack ‘social insight’ into Autistic culture and communication.
Milton calls this disconnect a ‘double problem’, because both Autistic and non-autistic people experience a lack of understanding for the other group.
In other words, empathy is a ‘two-way street’.
The impact of the double empathy problem
The empathy divide is experienced by both Autistic and non-autistic individuals. But these groups are not equally affected by the divide.
Because the non-autistic way of communicating and empathising is the typical, expected way, it is accepted as ‘normal’ and ‘correct’ by most people.
That means that the atypical, unexpected ways in which Autistic people communicate and empathise are often rejected as ‘different’ and ‘incorrect’.
Milton suggests that many non-autistic people assume that their majority, familiar way of empathising is superior or preferable to the Autistic way.
This perception has meant that non-autistic people often expect Autistic people to learn non-autistic culture and communication. Indeed, Autistic people are frequently given ‘treatment plans’ to help them to understand non-autistic perspectives.
But non-autistic people do not expect themselves to understand or learn Autistic perspectives.
Milton’s point is that we could see non-autistic people as lacking empathy for Autistic people.
What does that look like in action?
An everyday example of a non-autistic lack of empathy for Autistic experiences is the reaction from non-autistic people when we mention we are Autistic. Often, the automatic response from non-autistic individuals is, ‘we are all a bit on the spectrum’.
The non-autistic person’s response is usually intended empathetically. It is meant to ‘normalise’ our Autistic experience.
But this non-autistic response presumes that Autistics don’t want to be Autistic (since, doubtless, the non-autistic person does not want to be Autistic themselves).
Rather than empathetic, then, this response is highly offensive to the Autistic community since it undermines Autistic experience, authenticity, and identity.
Returning to Milton’s essay, we note that Autistic individuals say that, in fact, it is they who have been expected to make – and have actually made – the greater effort to understand the feelings of the non-autistic population.
‘One could say that many autistic people have indeed gained a greater level of insight into NT [non-autistic] society and mores than vice versa, perhaps due to the need to survive and potentially thrive in a NT culture. Conversely, the NT person has no pertinent personal requirement to understand the mind of the “autistic person” unless closely related socially in some way,’ Milton explains.
The value of the double empathy theory
The value of Milton’s theory is that it challenges the notion that Autistic people lack ‘theory of mind’. It reframes the disjunct between Autistic and non-autistic communities. We don’t need to think of superior and inferior ways of being. Instead we can see our co-existence as reliant on reciprocity and mutuality.
Autistic empathy is no less compassionate, no less thoughtful, no less ‘human’ than non-autistic empathy: it is simply different.
I find there is a lot of truth to what was said in the essay. My issue is that while we are autistic that is not all who we are. There is a popular saying in the autistic community “When you have met one autistic person, you have met one autistic person”. That saying is true for any group of people.
What the essay shows is that in general autistic people and non autistic people are going to have difficulty communicating. But communication between an autistic and non autistic is not in general, it is between two individuals.
In conclusion the double empathy problem and its negative consequences for autistics is something to be aware of but do not assume it will be the determining factor. If two people with similar interests and temperament meet the double empathy problem is likely to be a non or minor factor.
Very interesting, thank you. I didn’t know this theory in detail.
_________________
Let’s chat. Send me a message if you’d like.
I am friendly with my work colleagues but they are probably not my actual friends because I would never just text them to say hi
I can’t find a counterargument to this criterion.
_________________
Let’s chat. Send me a message if you’d like.
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