What do you guys think of Zionism ?

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This is a repost from the Announcement: Forum guidelines - polite reminder.... sticky thread in this forum, which is also relevant here.

Mc_Jeff's response illustrates an interesting tidbit about the Arab-Israeli conflict: many of Israel's supporters believe its existence is still essential to the survival of the Jewish people, and thus, see anyone who's against Israel as being against Jews in general. This is, in large part, the reason that Israel tends to be less than delicate when it comes to its own security and defense. Ironically, this makes the protestations against Israel even louder, thus feeding back into the "world is out to get us" mindset -all in all a rather interesting dynamic.

Before anyone jumps on my post, please remember that I'm trying to steer the discussion of this rather controversial topic back towards more rational discourse. While I suppose screaming at each other is more viscerally satisfying, it accomplishes absolutely nothing, and will probably result in badly hurt feelings and/or ejection from the WP.net community.

(Mc_Jeff, I'm not trying to pick on you; you're posts just make a good segue into mine.)

Well, the moustachioed austrian originally toyed with deporting all the jews to Madagascar. Would that have helped much? I think not. For a start, the natives of Madagascar might well have had an issue. Second, the island istelf isnt realy built for supporting a huge population.

Its all very well suggesting that the Us or UK has "empty land" they could stick people in, but the UK is actually remarkably small, nd any land it would have "given up" would have had to come from land that wasnt really its property. (Like Palestine......). Theres a fair amount of the US standing free, but bear in mind that a lot of it, whilst empty, isnt exactly suited to housing 6 million odd people, or a growing population. Any bits that are really worth living in are quite possibly already populated to some extent, so it would merely be dispaced americans fighting, rather than Palestinians. Not to mention the fact that Jerusalem would STILL be a holy place to them, and Israel would STILL be the promised land, in their eyes.

The Zionist movement does indeed have it's roots in the late 19th century, however the 'everywhere we went we were treated bad' argument barely stands up, an Irishman or Scotsman in the UK got a harder time and had less opportunity, a newly freed slave in the US, or liberated Russian peasant...
The Zionist movement was from the beginning,

Separatist - Orthodox Jews only.
Racist - white Jews only [check attitudes towards the black Jews of mountainous Ethiopia who are incidentally the oldest settled Jewish community on earth.
Paranoid - Check the writings of the founders of the movement.

As for the 'holy land of Israel' according to maps published at the end of the 19th century it encompassed all the lands south of the Euphrates and East of the Nile - ALL OF THE 'MIDDLE EAST'.

So what do I think on Zionism? Screw the lot of the elitist racist scumbags!
My flatmate is an 'ethnic' Jew and I have good relations with most Arabs I meet or know so don't start the 'anti-Semite' BS but if you wanna abuse me for hating what are in effect Jewish Nazi's f**k you, burn Israel burn....
j

If you think the Israelis are mean to the Palestinians take a look at how jews were treated in arab countries just before the creation of Israel. People complain about Zionism being racist but are strangely silent about Pakistan being founded on the same basis.

Zionists: not Jews, but many are from among the Jews. Totally ruthless and completely unscrupulous, they don't mind killing Jews or any non-Zionists, even a whole race. They are some of the the very, very rich and the very very powerful; the ones that keep their governmental positions when the presidents change. Their plan has been corrupting man's history for centuries; they aren't just after a homeland, they want the whole world. There aren't that many of them but lots of people like lower masonic orders and pro-Israelis think they are with them but aren't -they are only being used.

I know several families from that part of the world and to the best of my knowledge there were no major problems between ARABS living in Palestine regardless whether they were Jew, Muslim or Christian. Most of the problems between Jews and non Jews began during the 1920's due to the arrival of mainly Central and Eastern European ZIONIST Jews.

My home town is a particularly diverse place, a few years back a group of whinging white supremacist hate mongers decided to open up a 'youth and sports' club. Two things happened, the introduction of the race issue and the question of superiority increased tensions between the white trash and the brown trash, the second thing that happened was a group of people banded together and ran the buggers out of town.
Similar things have occurred throughout history, once one group places itself above another, by claiming racial, moral or spiritual superiority, or by claiming a bigger than fair share or that which they have no fair claim to... well s**t tends to happen...
A well behaved guest is made welcome, a good neighbour is a good neighbour, peace j

As revealed by Naeim Giladi, the treatment of the jews in arab countries at that time was set up by Israel itself to help populate its new country. Jews and Arabs had happily coexisted for centuries before that.
Are you saying that the fact that one people was badly treated is a good reason for them to ill-treat another?
Zionism is undeniably racist. Even against Jews.

Wrong.

Actually a lot of Zionists are so called Christians, elite Westerners who belive the lost 10 tribes of Israel headed west to found Great Britain, then America.
They belive the West has prospered because they are Gods chosed people just like the tribe of Judah.
They belive that at the end of days, (like very soon), Israel will be regathered again in Jerusalem from where they can rule the rest of the world, (New World Order ruled by Anti-Christ).

What they forget is that God abandoned the 10 tribes due to apostacy such as worshipping Molech, (just like Bush and the Elite still do at Bohemia Grove).
And that the prophesy for the return of Israel to Jerusalem is Spiritual Israel and Spiritual Jerusalem, not physical fleshly Jerusalem!

The Freemasons are an indication of this with thier obsession with rebuilding Solomans Temple in Jerusalem.

So, Zionism is even worst than you all might imagin, as its the Satanic counterfiet of Gods Kingdom, it will last three and a half years before God destroys it and establishes the true Kingdom of God, but anybody who submitted to the Satanic Kingdom and got the 666 mark of the beast, will be destroyed, so dont.

All three world wars where started by Zionists with the purpose of regaining Israel, and establishing the vehicle of the One World Government.League of Nations then United Nations, WW3 will give it complete control.
The primary instigator of Zionism is the House of Rothschild, it is his mark on the back of the dollar, it is he who came up with the Star of David as Israels symbol, the Anti-Christ is widly tipped to come from the House of Rothschild.
Rothschild controls 53% of the worlds money, Rothschild sets the price of Gold each day.

Someone else correctly pointed out that Hitler wanted to send the Jews to Madagascar, ie, he didnt want to kill them all, it was Zionists who prevented him from doing that as they wanted Jews to suffer in order to win Palestine through the emotional blackmail of the suffering of fellow Jews by Westerners.
This emotional blackmail is still used today in the form of Anti_semitism to stop anybody dare critisising what Zionists are up to.

Read the Protocola of the Elders of Zion where they admit they will sacrifice there own to further the cause of Zionism.

No wonder so many knowledgeable jews hate Zionism, and not just scum.

As for the Iranian presedents remarks, do some research, he has been misquoted regarding wiping out Israel.

You can blame the Zionsit controlled media for that who are determined to get us all to hate and fight Israels enemies for them and possibly start WW3 from which they alone will imerge the victors.

I’ve heard about a prominent group of Christian Zionists who believe in an event called the Rapture, which is when Jesus will descend from heaven. One version apparently states that, among others, the following conditions must first be met: (1) The nations of the world must unify their currency onto a universal standard. (2) There will be peace in Israel (Ezekiel 38 ). (3) There will be a one-world government, to correspond to the 7th beast of Revelation, prior to the Antichrist's 8th beast government. (4) The Jewish temple in Jerusalem must be rebuilt in its original place.
( See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture )

The bit about the 10 tribes heading west is news to me. I’ve heard of British Israelism, which (allegedly) may have played a part in Cromwell’s government letting the Jews back into England. I didn’t know any influential people still believed in that. Who do you suspect does?

I suppose I might kind of echo what McJeff has said, and ask what people think Zionism actually is, since as it seems clear Zionists can be followers of Judaism or followers of Christianity (and probably followers of neither as well). My view is that it’s only natural that the Jews – like any other people – should desire a homeland, and that Israel, now it exists, has as much right as any other sovereign nation to defend itself. What’s more, how Israelis organise their own society is of little concern to me.

Does this make me a Zionist? I don’t know.
Can Zionism be just support for Israel, or does it necessarily encompass the extremes that Jews have gone to to secure the establishment of Israel?

And does Zionism necessarily encompass the influence Israel-supporting Jews have had (and continue to have) on the rest of the world, e.g., US foreign policy, open borders and “anti-hate laws” ? And does it necessarily encompass the Old Testament stuff about Israel being a light unto the nations. I read on wikipedia the words of one Conservative Jew who said that the Torah obligates Jews “to build a just and compassionate society throughout the world and especially in the land of Israel”.

Well, ok, if this world society involves open borders, anti-hate laws and spreading democracy by force, then I oppose that. Some might insist that that is all part of “Zionism”. But I wouldn’t call myself an anti-Zionist, since I am generally supportive of Israel.

As an afterthought - I would guess that for many Jews this “open borders for the world, Israel for the Jews” point of view is ultimately an expression of ethnic interest rather than religious fundamentalism.