Nobel to Doris Lessing

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There could be another angle of attack in exploring the relationship between autism and malice. We can postulate with greater certainty now that whatever disruptions that occur in the autistic brain, the hypothalamus, cerebellum, limbic system and brain stem are areas that have commonly emerged as key problem spots. Running minds, meltdowns, sleeplessness and autistic rage can all be traced to these more primitive sections of the brain. Many Aspies have noted that when they are in a meltdown it can become hard to control their anger. This seems to indicate the limbic system as a prime suspect for dysfunction in the autistic brain.

The limbic system controls primal sensations like fear, rage, sexual appetite, and so on. The malice observed could be a result of limbic dysfunction. Empathy is impaired and a certain callous disregard for others results. Or to put it another way, when the limbic system becomes dominant, the human characteristics that we associate with cerebral consciousness declines in importance as the governing motive of our actions.

I don't think that anger, rage, and fury are quite the same as malice.

Why do cruel acts by children not count as abuse and torture and harassment, just like that perpetrated by adults?
Agree need to recognise that possibly some of the cruellest acts are committed in childhood and that their relative immunity from serious ,systematic, and considered sanctions/reactions by society as a whole does not encourage the malicious one to reexamine their strategy. ( of "numbness"to other humans in order to succeed as an ASD sufferer in the big NT world).
Not "punishment " , but intensive cognitive training and support.
If there was some sort of greater awareness by parents and, while they continue to exist, schools ,of the difference between the normal naughtiness of rule breaking and the malicious treatment or provoking of others then perhaps children could receive the cognitive therapy to repair their hugely destructive coping mechanism before it becomes too late to make much difference without years of work ( or moments of grace).
If childhood cruelty was taken seriously, not to punish but as sign of dysfunction needing help then perhaps very large numbers of people would avoid lives behind walls ( not only prison ones!! Ones in the head shutting them off from other people!), and others the destruction wrought by such people.

Last edited by ouinon on 12 Oct 2007, 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Repression of cruelty and violence is much more delegated to unofficial agencies, that one might believe. Police and judges intervene only when nobody else intervenes. In the case of family this sounds obvious: parents must take care of their children. But there are very large environments where "order" is left to the mob, to extended mafia families, to ethnic structures (like the Chinese of the various Chinatowns). Bureaucratic official structures mingle only where nobody else does. So criminal cases belong to the category of psychotic behaviors or petty (even is sometimes bloody) delinquency of isolated individuals. Among communities self regualating is the one of wealthy people who have access to lawyers and private detectives as those depicted in Chandler novels.

That's interesting ( if it's true ?); so does that mean that in a sense the cases we see/hear of being treated in criminal court are more like "examples" of something.

Why are they visible?

They're like stories which prove certain things by their endings.

Which is why so much hysteria around Madeleine McCann case , which I only heard about on discussion forums ,and the emotions are high. Those for whom it is NECESSARY that the parents should be found innocent,( a stranger did it !) and those for whom they must be proven guilty ( privileged white middle-class liars!) .

That's what you meant by circuses?

There was a famous sociologist (Durkheim), who said that, in a sense, crime is necessary and useful for society because it makes possible to show, through trial and punishment, where the boundaries of norms lie. It publicizes what is lawful and what not.
But most of repression is carried out outside the judicial machinery.

I totally agree that the penal system needs a complete overhaul. Like I think schools are on their last legs and will , hopefully, be phased out in favour of something more like Ivan Illich proposed 40 years ago, I think the penal system is creaking at the seams and can barely cope with any reasonable task , not even advertising the rules, because people don't believe in it or respect it any longer.
Though Charles Dickens was already writing about the absurdities and iniquities of the british justice system 150 years ago. Perhaps it will always seem like a travesty to any age because it is always changing. Always under strain .
I was thinking that Dickens describes the law courts etc of his time like film or television studios where everybody is trying to get their script read, or produced!!

Similar arguments have been made for the 'malice' of atheistic individuals. My response is usually to argue that while being an atheist does not make one more predisposed to malice, it is possible and demonstratable that a clear-thinking person poses more danger as a criminal than an impulsive person does. The most effectively malicious individuals in history were those with noteworthy intelligence and -- even more relevant to Asperger Syndrome in particular -- intense interests.

To think that makes atheism or AS themselves dangerous is backward-thinking, however. A policeman or government intelligence agent would make a terrifying criminal, as well.

I don't remember saying , nor do i remember noticing in the article , anything that suggested that people with ASD were more likely to be dangerous than NTs.
(That seems to be your idea ; that " a clear thinking person poses more danger than an impulsive person". Which is begging the question of whether it is in fact the case that a "clear thinking" person is more of a danger than an impulsive person!!, AND whether ASD sufferers are actually "clear thinking")

But I do believe that an ASD sufferer who IS malicious may commit some of the most atrocious acts without apparently feeling the atrociousness, which might make them more " effective" at it as a result! But not as dangerous as the NT who drops a bomb and kills thousands in an instant. ??

Last edited by ouinon on 16 Oct 2007, 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

I was struck by Asperger's description of us as malicious when I read it, but over the years, I have realised I can be malicious. It's rather like a cat 'batting' a mouse around or something, it's a form of play (for me, heh).

I think possibly the thing he missed was that lots of children can be malicious, but children with asperger's are unskilled at concealing it, so perhaps that's why he noticed it. an nt child would have concealed it.

As for Lessing's novel, while I havent read it, if the premise is that a child/sibling with asperger's destroyed a (formerly normal, happy) family, well, in my case, my family destroyed me. I guess the book that answers hers (and more accurately reflects my experience of asperger's in the family) is Kafka's "the metamorphosis".

Last edited by Postperson on 16 Oct 2007, 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

THAT is a very interesting observation ! !! !

I think you may have really got something there.
Children with aspergers don't understand that maliciousness is supposed to be concealed, or something.

That it goes on all the time amongst NTs but is hidden and denied , or actually so much part of fabric of society that is no longer noticed by most people ( for instance certain "normal"parental treatment of children , as your remark about "family destroying you" might relate to,and in many other arenas in soc. ), whereas to ASD sufferer it is another human behaviour( that they may even feel proud to have noticed!! ) to decipher and master.
And whereas for the NT it will quickly become automatic , for the ASD sufferer it will remain, as does so much of social interraction, a conscious deliberate thing ( for longer anyway).
And why it causes such disturbance because it is making something usually hidden , taboo in a sense, suddenly visible. Wow.

Thank you very much Postperson.