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monty
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20 Nov 2007, 7:05 pm

Most auties don't produce much melatonin, and those that produce the least have more symptoms, especially with regards to verbal communication and play:

Quote:
Biol Psychiatry. 2005 Jan 15;57(2):134-8.
Nocturnal excretion of 6-sulphatoxymelatonin in children and adolescents with autistic disorder.
Tordjman S, Anderson GM, Pichard N, Charbuy H, Touitou Y.

Center for Scientific Research, Unité de Recherche Mixte 7593, Vurnérabilité, Adaptation et Psychopathologie, Hôpital Pitié-Salpétrière, Rennes, France. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: Many studies in autistic disorder report sleep problems and altered circadian rhythms, suggesting abnormalities in melatonin physiology. Additionally, melatonin, a pineal gland hormone produced from serotonin, is of special interest in autistic disorder given reported alterations in central and peripheral serotonin neurobiology. METHODS: Nocturnal urinary excretion of 6-sulphatoxymelatonin was measured by radioimmunoassay in groups of children and adolescents with autistic disorder (n = 49) and normal control individuals (n = 88) matched on age, sex, and Tanner stage of puberty. RESULTS: Nocturnal 6-sulphatoxymelatonin excretion rate was significantly and substantially lower in patients with autism than in normal controls (mean +/- SEM, .75 +/- .11 vs. 1.80 +/- .17 microg/hr, p =.0001), and was significantly negatively correlated with severity of autistic impairments in verbal communication and play (p < .05). CONCLUSIONS: These findings indicate clearly that nocturnal production of melatonin is reduced in autism. Further research is warranted in order to understand the mechanisms underlying the lower melatonin production, to assess the impact of altered melatonin on the pathophysiology and behavioral expression of autistic disorder, and to determine the utility of melatonin administration in individuals with autism.



Kitsy
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20 Nov 2007, 7:09 pm

The first day I tried melatonin, it worked great. Second day it didn't work. Kept trying and it didn't work. I also grew tolerant of ambien within a week.

Icarus, I think I'll try your method. Is Valerian root easy to obtain?


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poopylungstuffing
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20 Nov 2007, 7:19 pm

You can find valarian at any health food store...and many drug stores...in pill form and in tea form.
I use a natural sleep remedy that does not contain melatonin (since it does not really work for me...but it does contain valarian and other stuff...( i forget what the one I take is called)



Kitsy
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20 Nov 2007, 7:23 pm

thanks poopylungstuffing. Was just looking it up



Whole Herb Supplement.

For relief of occasional sleeplessness.

Effectiveness supported by clinical trials.

Standardized Valerian Root.

No artificial colors, flavors or preservatives.

Valerian has been popular for centuries with people seeking natural support to enhance their nighttime rest.

Along with proper diet and exercise, getting adequate sleep is an important part of maintaining optimal health and well-being.

Color variation is normal in this product.

Valerian root has a natural odor that some people find objectionable.

These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

So people have been using it for centuries. It's not fda approved. No artificial additives. Okay it's worth trying!


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Icarus_Falling
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20 Nov 2007, 7:24 pm

Kitsy wrote:
Icarus, I think I'll try your method. Is Valerian root easy to obtain?

Yes; and it's relatively cheap also. You can probably find it at your grocer's, or certainly at any vitamin shop like GNC. I happen to use the NOW brand available from Bodybuilding.com. [I can recommend Bodybuliding.com BTW; I'm a bit of an herb and vitamin freak, and I've ordered from them many, many times; they've never let me down. One of the things I love about the modern era is being able to shop selectively without leaving my home. :wink: ]

Be prepared for a wondrously pungent earthy smell! [Some people would say valerian root "stinks", but I enjoy the smell.]

Good fortune,

- Icarus wishes you sweet dreams...


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Kitsy
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20 Nov 2007, 7:28 pm

Icarus_Falling wrote:
Kitsy wrote:
Icarus, I think I'll try your method. Is Valerian root easy to obtain?

Yes; and it's relatively cheap also. You can probably find it at your grocer's, or certainly at any vitamin shop like GNC. I happen to use the NOW brand available from Bodybuilding.com. [I can recommend Bodybuliding.com BTW; I'm a bit of an herb and vitamin freak, and I've ordered from them many, many times; they've never let me down. One of the things I love about the modern era is being able to shop selectively without leaving my home. :wink: ]

Be prepared for a wondrously pungent earthy smell! [Some people would say valerian root "stinks", but I enjoy the smell.]

Good fortune,

- Icarus wishes you sweet dreams...


Earthy smell can be good. I'll have to see first. I plan on getting some today.

I can't stand the smell of spearmint gum.


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monty
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20 Nov 2007, 7:32 pm

Valerian is pretty easy to find. I was headed to a friend's farm earlier this month, and realized that I had forgotten my anxiety war chest (which naturally made me feel on the edge).

The only place to look for something (I was hoping for passionflower or skullcap) was the Super Walmart in the middle of nowhere but on the way. They had valerian capsules. (Yes, with the Earthy smell. Accept no substitutes - that's the mark of good product.)

Valerian and hops combined seem to be better for sleep, according to research (on NTs). Hops extract also comes in capsules or tincture; I drink O'Douls in the evening, a non-alcoholic beer with a fair dose of hops.



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20 Nov 2007, 7:37 pm

I used to take 9 mgs of Melatonin at a half hour to bedtime (made me very drowsy); before my doctor had me on so much bedtime medication that it had become totally redundant for me.

(I took Valerian along with it.)


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21 Nov 2007, 6:41 am

The effects of taking melatonin on me have been so pronounced that I am inclined to agree with you. It has just been a few days and I feel that everything is turning around. Last night I went to bed at 10:30 pm and took 1 mg of melatonin 30 minutes before but there was some noise that woke me at 11:00 pm. What would usually happen is that I will lie in bed, try my best to but be unable to sleep. When I woke up in the morning the autistic symptoms would become very pronounced. But instead of just lying in bed, I decided to take another 1 mg and it worked like a charm. More importantly, I did not just fall asleep, I got very good quality REM sleep and woke up this morning feeling refreshed and without any autistic effects.

There was a MIT study which suggests that small doses of melatonin are actually more effective than large doses. They do not know why though. Someone else spoke of taking 9 mg and that might be a little too much. It is also interesting that some report a tolerance to melatonin because the online literature seem to suggest that tolerance does not happen or that if it did, the thing to do to regain sensitivity would be to go off melatonin for a while and then back on it again.

Melatonin does seem to slow down my metabolic rate though. My physical activity has actually slowed down in the last few days. For example, I power walk and what took me 40-41 minutes to accomplish before required 43 minutes today. I tried to push but for some reason even my mind refused to accept my Type A aggression and insisted on a slower pace.

For kids who cannot sleep, and many Aspie/Autie kids exhibits sleep disruption, melatonin might make their care and management a lot easier. It may also greatly reduce the autistic symptoms that these kids exhibit in the day helping them to be calmer and more sociable.

monty wrote:
Most auties don't produce much melatonin, and those that produce the least have more symptoms, especially with regards to verbal communication and play:

Quote:
Biol Psychiatry. 2005 Jan 15;57(2):134-8.
Nocturnal excretion of 6-sulphatoxymelatonin in children and adolescents with autistic disorder.
Tordjman S, Anderson GM, Pichard N, Charbuy H, Touitou Y.

Center for Scientific Research, Unité de Recherche Mixte 7593, Vurnérabilité, Adaptation et Psychopathologie, Hôpital Pitié-Salpétrière, Rennes, France. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: Many studies in autistic disorder report sleep problems and altered circadian rhythms, suggesting abnormalities in melatonin physiology. Additionally, melatonin, a pineal gland hormone produced from serotonin, is of special interest in autistic disorder given reported alterations in central and peripheral serotonin neurobiology. METHODS: Nocturnal urinary excretion of 6-sulphatoxymelatonin was measured by radioimmunoassay in groups of children and adolescents with autistic disorder (n = 49) and normal control individuals (n = 88) matched on age, sex, and Tanner stage of puberty. RESULTS: Nocturnal 6-sulphatoxymelatonin excretion rate was significantly and substantially lower in patients with autism than in normal controls (mean +/- SEM, .75 +/- .11 vs. 1.80 +/- .17 microg/hr, p =.0001), and was significantly negatively correlated with severity of autistic impairments in verbal communication and play (p < .05). CONCLUSIONS: These findings indicate clearly that nocturnal production of melatonin is reduced in autism. Further research is warranted in order to understand the mechanisms underlying the lower melatonin production, to assess the impact of altered melatonin on the pathophysiology and behavioral expression of autistic disorder, and to determine the utility of melatonin administration in individuals with autism.



AspCat
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21 Nov 2007, 11:17 am

I had been using Advil and Excedrin PM (1 capsule or tablet) to help me doze off. I ran out the other day and had some Melatonin left over, so I tried the 3 mg. I'm experiencing the vivid dreams everyone else mentions. They are not nightmares, but they are the type of thing that would make David Lynch proud.



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21 Nov 2007, 11:32 am

I think I've found that the major effect of melatonin is to speed up the sleep cycle. I think it tends to cause long REM cycles earlier in the night than is normal. Normally I would hardly ever wake up from a dream after only 4 hours of sleep but melatonin does this to me. I also notice evening grogginess the day after. I feel like I'm ready for bed by 8:00 PM sometimes, yet if I don't take a melatonin I become wide awake in the wee hours of the morning.



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21 Nov 2007, 3:56 pm

Icarus_Falling wrote:
(For the record, there’s nothing in Sleepy Time tea that actually makes you sleepy; it’s basically just mint/chamomile tea; but it is relaxing.)


Actually Chamomile is not benign. It is VERY calming. It can be used as a sleep aid, too.


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21 Nov 2007, 4:01 pm

ChatBrat wrote:
Icarus_Falling wrote:
(For the record, there’s nothing in Sleepy Time tea that actually makes you sleepy; it’s basically just mint/chamomile tea; but it is relaxing.)


Actually Chamomile is not benign. It is VERY calming. It can be used as a sleep aid, too.


Benign = good (not harmful). Not the same as innactive.

Chamomile does have some benzo-tranquilizing activity, but I haven't found it that effective compared to other herbs.

Quote:

Planta Med. 1995 Jun;61(3):213-6.
Apigenin, a component of Matricaria recutita flowers, is a central benzodiazepine receptors-ligand with anxiolytic effects.
Viola H, Wasowski C, Levi de Stein M, Wolfman C, Silveira R, Dajas F, Medina JH, Paladini AC.

Instituto de Biología Celular, Facultad de Medicina, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

The dried flower heads of Matricaria recutita L. (Asteraceae) are used in folk medicine to prepare a spasmolytic and sedative tea. Our fractionation of the aqueous extract of this plant led to the detection of several fractions with significant affinity for the central benzodiazepine receptor and to the isolation and identification of 5,7,4'-trihydroxyflavone (apigenin) in one of them. Apigenin competitively inhibited the binding of flunitrazepam with a Ki of 4 microM and had no effect on muscarinic receptors, alpha 1-adrenoceptors, and on the binding of muscimol to GABAA receptors. Apigenin had a clear anxiolytic activity in mice in the elevated plusmaze without evidencing sedation or muscle relaxant effects at doses similar to those used for classical benzodiazepines and no anticonvulsant action was detected. However, a 10-fold increase in dosage produced a mild sedative effect since a 26% reduction in ambulatory locomotor activity and a 35% decrement in hole-board parameters were evident. The results reported in this paper demonstrate that apigenin is a ligand for the central benzodiazepine receptors exerting anxiolytic and slight sedative effects but not being anticonvulsant or myorelaxant.

PMID: 7617761 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



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21 Nov 2007, 4:15 pm

Okay benign wasn't the right word. But I'm glad you know what I meant.


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monty
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21 Nov 2007, 4:33 pm

ChatBrat wrote:
Okay benign wasn't the right word. But I'm glad you know what I meant.


It sure beats coffee or other caffeine in the evening for not messing up sleep. I know some people that find it calming. Me, I'm beyond chamomile when it comes to anxiety.



Icarus_Falling
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21 Nov 2007, 5:57 pm

ChatBrat wrote:
Actually Chamomile is not benign. It is VERY calming. It can be used as a sleep aid, too.

monty wrote:
Chamomile does have some benzo-tranquilizing activity, but I haven't found it that effective compared to other herbs.

Thank you both; I stand educated, which is a good place to stand. I always marked chamomile down as "benignly calming", but never so far as benzo-tranquilizing. :wink:

Don't forget the Sleepytime tea, Kitsy. Oh, wait, you have issues with mints; does that include mint tea? :? Happily, straight chamomile tea is rather common; sounds like it is a more important part of my ritual than I'd realized.

Good fortune,

- Icarus takes comfort in the wonders of nature's chemistry...


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