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Ragtime
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28 Nov 2007, 9:38 pm

dorkynorky wrote:
What is faith...?

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)


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28 Nov 2007, 9:40 pm

greenblue wrote:
Why is it useful?

Well, if somebody invokes rights or some other moral statement then you can ask them how you can know about this truth and essentially from there break it down into unknowability. This is most effective against moral standards you don't necessarily agree with as you can possibly get them to agree with one that you do believe because deep down most people in our society have some moral similarities. This means that you might be able to insert a neutral seeming ethical philosophy such as utilitarianism as your opponent will likely accept it. If there is no moral similarity on any level between you and your opponent though then argument is somewhat useless.



Awesomelyglorious
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28 Nov 2007, 9:41 pm

Ragtime wrote:
dorkynorky wrote:
What is faith...?

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)

Already posted that quote.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp1046045.html#1046045



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28 Nov 2007, 9:41 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
phi-los-o-phy (fi-los-fe)n.pl. phi-los-o-phies. Abbr. phil., philos.
2. Inquiry into the nature of things based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods

I believe you omitted numbers 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8.

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The word is of Greek origin: φιλοσοφία (philosophía), a compound of φίλος (phílos: friend, or philia: lover) and σοφία (sophía: wisdom).


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greenblue
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28 Nov 2007, 9:50 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
greenblue wrote:
Why is it useful?

Well, if somebody invokes rights or some other moral statement then you can ask them how you can know about this truth and essentially from there break it down into unknowability. This is most effective against moral standards you don't necessarily agree with as you can possibly get them to agree with one that you do believe because deep down most people in our society have some moral similarities. This means that you might be able to insert a neutral seeming ethical philosophy such as utilitarianism as your opponent will likely accept it. If there is no moral similarity on any level between you and your opponent though then argument is somewhat useless.

well, depending on what kind of debate you are in, in a debate when something substantial is needed, then it would be useless, because it does not provide a solution, other than creating more questions or possibly confusion, depending the case, instead of answers.


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greenblue
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28 Nov 2007, 10:02 pm

Ragtime wrote:
dorkynorky wrote:
What is faith...?

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)

There is something curious about this translation, which I wonder, it seems a contradiction, the word 'evidence' with 'not seen', or it is not?


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Ragtime
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28 Nov 2007, 10:14 pm

greenblue wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
dorkynorky wrote:
What is faith...?

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)

There is something curious about this translation, which I wonder, it seems a contradiction, the word 'evidence' with 'not seen', or it is not?


I think it's quite eloquent.



marshall
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28 Nov 2007, 10:21 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
phi-los-o-phy (fi-los-fe)n.pl. phi-los-o-phies. Abbr. phil., philos.
2. Inquiry into the nature of things based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

I don't see where we can start epistemology outside of logical deduction.


That is one definition, but not the most general.

Philosophy: The search for knowledge and truth, especially about the nature of man and his behaviour and beliefs

Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary. K Dictionaries Ltd. 28 Nov. 2007. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/philosophy>.

Also, I think there is more to reason than logical deduction.

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Sure, I can accept that there is a difference in psychology. What does this difference have to do with the philosophical nature of the premises? All it refers to is the psychological nature of the premises and if truth is independent or has an unknown relationship to man then this fact means very little in terms of what we know on the truth value of any religion or of science or of any system that man accepts of any form.


Are people not more likely to believe something that gives them psychological benefit? This has no bearing on actual truth value, but it does have a bearing on how much I trust others’ beliefs to be truth. I am less likely to believe people who make claims based on wishful thinking. That’s all I’m saying.



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28 Nov 2007, 10:30 pm

Ragtime wrote:
I think it's quite eloquent.


Especially the "hoped for" part. In other words faith is wishful thinking.



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28 Nov 2007, 10:33 pm

marshall wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
I think it's quite eloquent.


Especially the "hoped for" part. In other words faith is wishful thinking.


So every time you hope for something, you're wrong? :roll:

Please read sentences more carefully.



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28 Nov 2007, 10:38 pm

Ragtime wrote:
So every time you hope for something, you're wrong?

Did I say that?
Quote:
Please read sentences more carefully.

What didn't I read?



greenblue
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28 Nov 2007, 10:41 pm

Ragtime wrote:
marshall wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
I think it's quite eloquent.


Especially the "hoped for" part. In other words faith is wishful thinking.


So every time you hope for something, you're wrong? :roll:

No, just as 'hoping' does not necessarily make things right either.


Quote:
Please read sentences more carefully.

^ This sentence also has a meaning.


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28 Nov 2007, 10:46 pm

marshall wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
So every time you hope for something, you're wrong?

Did I say that?

well, the 'wishful thinking' might have been interpreted like that. And well, Ragtime was defending his position.

Quote:
Quote:
Please read sentences more carefully.

What didn't I read?

well, in the end it doesn't make much sense to me, when you hear, reading the Bible properly or carefully, in context, etc. considering a good number of different interpretations existing. At least when it comes to that particular verse, I believe everyone agrees there.


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28 Nov 2007, 10:56 pm

Well if you base your belief on hope alone with nothing else backing it is usually wrong. I know Ragtime will say he does have backing, but of course I disagree.



Ragtime
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28 Nov 2007, 11:37 pm

greenblue wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
marshall wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
I think it's quite eloquent.


Especially the "hoped for" part. In other words faith is wishful thinking.


So every time you hope for something, you're wrong? :roll:

No, just as 'hoping' does not necessarily make things right either.



Hence why it's "faith". And not all faith is blind. There's informed faith -- such as we all use every day. When we start a well-tuned car, we believe it will start. In fact, most of us are positive that it will, yet we have no proof or actual knowledge that it will, only that it probably will. And more than 99% of the time, we're right. That's informed faith. Knowledge gets us most of the way to the conclusion, and blind faith gets us the rest of the way. That combination makes informed faith, such as when many Bible prophecies have already come true -- that's hard knowledge which indicates God's existence and His truths.

So, informed faith is used when Christians decide: "God, it looks like you're real. I'm not totally sure, but I'm willing to leap in the direction that the knowledge is clearly pointing, and trust in you."
As I said, we all use informed faith on a daily basis. Anytime you turn a doorknob expecting the door to open, you're using faith. Faith based on past experience. It's no different for Christians. They've experienced God doing obvious miraculous things in their lives, and they remember those things as supporting evidence for God's existence and other truths.

Faith empowers, because a true skeptic or empiricist who values his life cannot drive a car or board an airplane that's about to take off, because his survival during those events has not been proven to him. So, a totally faithless person is infinitely weak -- impotent to make any decision whatsoever that he cares about at all. By contrast, the man of faith can accomplish even what he has not yet imagined he can, simply because he is willing to proceed down an uncharted path, by trusting his past knowledge to approximately indicate future results.

But true skeptics and empiricists are frozen in their tracks. They never really live. Their own philosophy paralizes them in the real world -- the world that requires firm decisions to be made from finite knowledge. Therefore, nothing can ever be accomplished and enjoyed without faith. It's impossible, as I've shown.