Vermont Secession

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I do not want to pick a fight, am no good at debating, merely wish to say: as Vermont resident (for a dozen years), am relatively happy here-and that the government is not nearly "liberal" enough for my tastes/beliefs/values.
There are good & bad aspects to notion of any state seceding from nation-I feel same way about impeachment (of Bush).
I'm both (or neither, depending) for & against it, which is contradictory but doesn't mean I don't have strong feelings. Am intensely ambivalent about these & many other issues and canot make up my mind/come to a single conclusion.
In some ways, I'm extremely liberal, in other ways am stuck in-between, "moderate" I guess. Doesn't mean I don't care, means I'm equally convinced by both sides & cannot pick either one over the other. Nor does this make me devoid of opinion or position on political matters-but since I can't choose/commit to a set/single message, I avoid adding my thoughts to such discussions. There's a quote (am paraphrasing it very roughly) about liberals being "too liberal to take their own side in an argument"...

How do you handle the cognitive dissonance of simultaneously saying that California will perish without a market for all of the food that we produce, and that we will perish as the US 'starves us out'?

The US isn't the only country in the world, by the way. A lot of our trade is with other Pacific Rim countries - we send a lot of rice to China and Japan in particular. Yes, by the way, pot is the biggest cash crop here (and, IIrc, in the entire U.S.). We have excellent ports, as well as a significant length of shared border with Mexico.

We already function quite well, with very little help from 'Uncle Sam.' Our government is more democratic and protects more of our freedoms than that of the United States. There is absolutely no reason to dissolve the extant California system just because we no longer want to be allied with a bunch of war-mongering, homophobic, chickenhawk blow hards who somehow fail to see the irony in advocating for 'smaller government' while simultaneously spending billions on a pointless war and authorizing unconstitutional warrentless spying on U.S. citizens.

the U.S. will 'respond to the threat against it,' eh? Them, and what army? Every soldier the U.S. has is either stuck in the quicksand of Iraq or Afghanistan, or home trying to maintain their sanity in between 'stop-loss' deployments.

Economics, my friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production ... s_frontier

That is the foundation...but what when there's scarcity? To whom will the Californians trade with in exchange for food? The U.N. will have no power in convincing the U.S. to change their stance. Mexico will 'no help' California, neither will Canada, nor any other country.


If California broke apart it would become a Closed-Economy. Not by choice, but because of the pressure the U.S. will enforce. A closed economy has no chance at progress. You will survive, but survive in poverty.




The oceans are run by the U.S. Navy, the skies by the U.S. Air Force. Would you like to threatened a world superpower by trying to fly or sail through U.S. territory?




So what if somehow the people elect a ruthless, rabid, right wing to office or steals the election?, What if a Fundamental Evangelical paramilitary group pulls a coup on the new region of Kaliforniastan? Will the happy, peace-loving liberals of Kaliforniastan be able to protect themselves knowing they have the military capability of Iceland or Costa Rica?




There are over 1,400,000 militarymen on duty currently, with another 1,400,000 in reserves. I highly doubt they're all in Iraq and Afghanistan.

somebody got to do it.

all the aspie genius's and still no deep thoughts, mostly just rantings liberals programmed by the TV and other news.

one problem with your theory the state isn't liberal enough. Once the productive aren't allowed to keep most of their earnings, they stop being productive and people like you no longer have anyone to leech off of.

i quit working at 45 years old, only paid $242.00 of income tax in the last 3 years, tell your commie friends to enjoy wasting it all

Ahahahaha! California has a population of over 37 million people. No million man army could stand a chance against a resolute nation of that size.



All that says to me is that you are, and possibly as I believe you are probably correct America too, controlling, greedy, insecure, paranoid, and a barbaric brute.

What do you do when you are controlled by a tyrannical brute? Just ignore it and take it up the bung hole? Lol. If California freely and peacefully joined the Union, it should also have the ability to freely and peacefully rescind it's joining and declare itself sovereign and an independent nation. You could liken it to a marriage, should an abused wife be forced to stay with her husband who abuses her? Any decent person would say, HELL NO! It sounds to me that in your view the husband would have the right to beat her, rape her, physically force her to stay against her will, and if he could justify it to himself, he could even kill her. All because her leaving him would be upsetting.

My points are scattered about, so try to follow:

All out War: You're not expecting to have an all out war do you? I know we are thinking hypothetical but please. California will not have a military capable of taking on the U.S. This is California, not a well-funded terrorist/paramilitary group. Besides considering the fact that California is liberal to hell, they'll just protest while bombs rain on their head.


Raising an Army/Taxes: You do know how hard it will be to raise an army right? Do you know how hard it will be to raise the taxes as well? It is not something that will be easy like "Ok, I'll just sign off and it'll be 'good to go'!" This in American history has brought violence, more than once. Farmers got pissed, decided to organize a group of unskilled fighters, and decided to fight against the oppressors who raised their taxes or limited their commerce.



Act of War: The act of aggression would be brought by the state, why? Because all territory will be Americas. You cannot just say "Oh, ok, this is my land." No. It does not work like that, Dalai Lama.



Secession: If a state ever secedes, it will have a lot of explaining to do, like: Why? Followed by: How will you survive?


Your analogy is missing something: What if, when the husband decides to leave, the woman comes crying back to him? That is something that will happen if a state secedes.


Besides, who is the tyrant? Who will be the tyrant? Do you believe in Communism? It has not worked, and will never work. How many have died in the name of this Socialistic fallacy? How many of you have even studied Socialism? Socialism in all its 'for-the-people claim have yet to end unemployment--in fact it will cause more unemployment. Not because people are lazy to work, but because there's no incentive. I'm assuming you're for Socialism because you use similar phrases the far-left use like: Oppressive regime of terror, Nazi-dictator with quench for blood and oil, Despot from Hell!


This whole concept of "Let us be free! Love mother earth. Plant a tree!" is pure bs. Loony people subscribe to it only because it is an ideal. It will never be.

I've already mentioned, we have plenty of trade with countries around the pacific rim.



Who said anything about the UN?
California, by itself, has one of the largest economies on the planet. Some countries would not acknowle Californian independence, but others, Mexico probably being among them, would.




yes, we've seen how 'effective' the U.S. embargo of Cuba has been. Unlike Cuba, California has a flourishing economy and products and ports that other countries need.



The oceans are only run by the U.S. Navy out to 20 nautical miles from the U.S. coast. The U.S. isn't the only nation in the world to have nuclear submarines, bombers, and fighter jets.



If right-wingers stage a coup of the Republic of California, they will be assasinated.



They're not all in Iraq or Afghanistan at one time, no. How many wars can the U.S. fight at one time, though? The country is already past bankruptcy over two holes in the eastern sands.

try us.



Currently, California receives $0.75 for every dollar it pays in Federal taxes. Every cent that is currently going to the federal government would be redirected to Californian coffers.

Problem solved.



Yes, part of my argument has been that the United States needs California more than California needs the United States.



If California were to secede, I imagine that the reason would be abundantly clear - something like Bush declaring martial law and suspending this year's elections to prevent a democratic sweep of every public office.



already been answered.



You're saying that the U.S. will abandon California, and California will come crying back to the federal government?
*snort*
Even if we did decide later to re-ally ourselves with another government, we would more likely do so with Canada, Japan, or Mexico - and, given our resources, we would do so on our own terms.



Could you point to where I or anyone else on this thread said any of those things? The closest is Mikebw, who used the term 'tyrannical brute,' which is a far cry from what you are alledging.
I imagine that the Governator would stay in office as the leader of California, at least until the next election.
Also, who said anything about socialism?
As I have said several times, we already have a working government, and there is no reason to change either that or our economic system.



No one is talking about some sort of perfect Ecotopia. I'm talking about California, as it is now. Except independent. But if we do have ideals, we'll certianly never make any progress towards that ideal or any other if we just give up and don't try. The fact is, the rest of the country is in free fall and keeps on saying that everything is fine because we haven't crash-landed yet.
It would take something like a suspension of elections to make the majority of Californians consider secession, but I hope that we are not along for the ride when the crash comes.

Sojourn, the last post wasn't directed to you, but whatever.

Here are my points:

The Federal Reserve? LMAO! Yes, I'm sure California controls the Feds. The central banks in California would have a very difficult time in organizing their commodity. How liquid will your new money be? Who will establish an international unit? Wait, that is an absurd comment. There will be no way for that money to leave the new region. So your money will not be weighed by anything but Fiat. There will be no investment. When the people lose their faith over the falling weight of useless paper money, let us see how much they like living in that country.


Trade: You will not have trade. Why? Because America the Beautiful will say so. Do you believe Mexico, Japan, and other countries would risk upsetting the U.S. because of a rebellious state? That would be a diplomatic failure of epic proportions. Not even other states could trade with you. I hope your new country will have plenty of barter goods. Everything will be shut down. Enjoy your rolling black outs.

"$30k for newspaper and bread? Would you take a goat, instead?"




Military: The U.S. isn't the only country to have a navy, airforce, and ground troops, yes, but what does that have to do with California? Do you think the U.S. will allow a break-away country to create its own military so close to its land? I don't. No other country will interfere either.





I wonder why so many Americans cry "I am being oppressed by a ruthless man!" This country is probably one of the better places to ever make a living, and actually maintain that lifestyle without interference.

To quote you, "an act of aggression against such a provocateur would be the only proper response." Yeah, if "America the beautiful" decided to declare war on California for seceding, and she was resolute in her stance to remain separate from the good ole U.S., you can bet your rear end that they would become an armed force to be reckoned with, and just 10% of them equaling 3 million men outnumber the U.S. military 3:1. I also doubt that the U.S. would be wholly united for an open war with a neighbor that contains family and friends. There would probably be a high desertion rate in the U.S. army's invading force, and riots in the streets of sympathetic states.

But let's be real here. The U.S.A has not always existed, and the U.S.A. will not always exist. How it ends is anyone's guess, but I'm sure it will be messy.



I never said it would be a bed of roses. There would be rough patches of course, people being people. Like I sort of said before, it depends on the people of California. If they're resolute, they'd find many ways. If they are fickle, they'd give up without a fight. The question is how many are resolute and how many are fickle?




It doesn't? It seems to be what humans have been doing since they realized they could make a claim on anything. Of course, if you can't back your claim up or are unwilling to, your claim doesn't really matter. California, being California, is currently in possession of itself. The U.S. has a claim to her because it beat her over the head and took her as it's own(In the Mexican-American War), but should she stand up for herself and take a stance the U.S. would have two choices, let her fly free, or beat her again and reclaim her. The U.S. can't just say, "That was mine, give it back." That only works in supervised children's playgrounds.




No it wouldn't. The federal government being the scared, paranoid, power hungry mob boss it is wouldn't give a damn about reasons. The U.S. wouldn't be reasonable. Not according to you anyway. So there would be no need for "splaining to do."




California left the U.S. remember? In this scenario the U.S. is the abusive husband, California is the wife who has had enough.






I think you got mixed up or read into something wrong here, because none of the above applies to anything I've said.




"America the beautiful, land of the free" is also a delusioned ideal that has never been or will ever be. But loony people sure do cling to it! *Where's a shifty eyed emoticon when you need it?*

Who said anything about controling the Federal Reserve? I simply said that the taxes that currenly flow out of California would stay within California in the event of secession.



Why would you think that? Nations are built all of the time, and I'm sure that California has enough MBAs PhDs in economics to offer some good advice. We would probably start out with US dollars - these have value even on 'black' markets, and many foriegn governments currently trade in them.



yes and a U.S. that is haemorrhaging states and with its army bogged down in Iraq would be sooooo scary.



So, let's see... we couldn't get any cows from texas; that's ok, we have our own. No fish from Alaska; that's ok, we have our own. No oranges from Florida; that's ok, we have our own. No lobsters from Maine; that's ok, we have dungeness crab and oyesters. ...Do you begin to see the picture? We have produce, we have grains, we have fish, we have forests, we have livestock, we have silicon valley.



We no longer have Enron controlling our power, and I'm pretty sure that between our ocean (wave-driven), our rivers (hydroelectric), our sunshine (solar), and our Santa Ana winds (wind power), we could figure something out.



I don't think that the U.S. will have a choice.



I would certianly hope not. The last thing we would need - the last thing that the U.S. would be likely to accept - is foriegn governments getting involved in nation-building in our backyard.



yes, it is. It has been. The problem is that the current administration is whacking on the U.S. constitution with an axe, with a chainsaw, with hatchets and files - in the daytime, in the dark, on weekends and holidays too. Right now, it is potentially reparable (we'll see what happens with the next election), but it will take years of work to do so; should the point come that the constitution is no more the law of the land than some 3rd world window-dressing, then the time will have come for California to go its own way. I mentioned before, and I will say it again: it would take something serious, like the suspension of elections, for this to occur. I think that the administration should realize, though, that the country (other states have individual personalities, too) will not just roll over and allow itself to be pithed.

I am much more interested in Key West seceding and becoming the Conch Republic.

http://www.conchrepublic.com/

Hmm...yes, because the Civil War did not include family members.

You're talking about an incredible and stupid shift in politics. Why would you want to remove yourself from the U.S.? You're not living in Yugoslavia, guy. No one in the world will back you. You don't have a Thomas Jefforson, or even a Sam Adams for that matter, to pull off such a ridiculous move.





It's not going to happen. If people in California are bitching about $3+ gas, I'm sure they'd be peachy when they find out their oil reserves ran out.





Heh, you think in simple terms...and yeah, like Mexico was going to do anything meaningful with California, lol.

The U.S. will not tolerate any state discussing secession.





Ha. So there won't be a Declaration of Independence? Wow, you "seceders" got everything planned out.




"What if, when the husband decides to leave" meaning it has accepted the terms.






I was putting that just in case





America is not free. There is no complete freedom to its citizens. Only idiots declare they are truly free. We are as a nation more free than a great majority of the world however. We are the most successful, and the most prosperous. Hell, even our bums have more money than Africans.

What we have is the trade-off between freedom and equality. You cannot have both in excess.









And so will the impending inflation.





Yes, those economic doctors. What were they called...Communists? Hmm, is communism successful? Actually, that is a harsh word. Most economists understand the incredulous nature of such a theory.

To add, economists cannot decide on what the hell people want or need, let alone how to keep a break-a-way country from further breaking.




You think other countries would trade with a state that has alienated itself from the U.S.? I don't. I don't see how anyone can.






...and you are forgetting the big picture here: RESOURCES RUN OUT! WHO WILL YOU TRADE WITH ONCE YOUR RESOURCES RUN OUT? N O O N E ! ! !

You can't feed millions of people off nano-technology.




Ha, enjoy the beach.






Which is why U.S. will retaliate.




Are you sure you aren't living in the late 1700s?




No, it is not. Checks and balances. You act as if Bush himself sent the troops to the Middle East. Remember? Congress voted for it. The Patriot Act, remember? Congress voted for it. The War bill, remember? Congress voted for it.

It's not going to happen now, of course. Not while the majority of Americans are comfy with their lives. But I wouldn't put it past happening. I doubt a revolution or state's seceding/liberating themselves will happen in my life time, but then I doubt the Romans thought their empire would collapse five years before it did and you see how that went...



Who said they would openly discuss it?



How many of the seceding states put an explanation in their declaration letter? Not all of them, that I know. As you say the U.S. will not tolerate any state even discussing secession, what would be the point of explaining their reasons any way, even if they were super great reasons that no one could deny?



According to you the U.S. wouldn't tolerate the discussion of secession, why would the U.S. give terms the time of day? And, it's my opinion that a state threatening secession with "if" terms is sending an idle threat. They aren't serious about seceding, they are most likely bluffing.

And should the U.S. accept their secession and not attack them, but cut them off from trade, well, people are resourceful little buggers. Where there is a will, there is a way. And the U.S. wouldn't be helping itself by cutting off all trade either.




Yes. The U.S. doesn't scare the bejeezus out of every other country in the world. I can think of a few off hand that may see an opportunity they would take advantage of. Not all U.S. embargoes work as the U.S. wishes them to, you know.

1) It's not going to happen, ever. Think of all the businesses that will end up losing in the end. Do you think Silicon Valley will remain? Hollywood? It wouldn't. If it did, all those people would be out of business.

2) Do you plan to have a Californian style "Constitutional Convention"?

3) Who will organize every single detail in the country? Everything that you knew was America.

4) The state would destroy itself: rising taxes, inflation, loss of jobs, scarcity. Look at every country that has become independent. Now add a pissed-off Super Power in the mix...yeah.

5) If it is a hostile country, it would not get anywhere near America. All Californian airbases will be shut because, well because 'American Airlines' isn't called Californian Airwaves.