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KristaMeth
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30 Dec 2007, 8:25 am

I'm kind of confused here.

So as far as I know, AS is an ailment. Not a superpower. Not something that gets diagnosed because a person is so gifted that the only answer is Asperger's. I assume people get a dx because they have some kind of problem. It's something that impairs your ability to function (otherwise one wouldn't get the dx, correct?). Maybe your ability to make/answer important phone calls, give a speech in school without cracking, or play the sports or activities that you're interested in, will be impaired.

Yet I still keep seeing people get really offended at the thought of AS being portrayed as a disability rather than a gift. People who think that the idea of having a cure is a personal attack aimed at anyone having AS. Like anyone without AS who is pro cure must somehow hate people with Asperger's and want them wiped off the face of the earth.

Don't get me wrong, I accept my condition. But I would not choose to be born with any kind of mental or physical ailment. I can see how people would want to concentrate on the positive. I like the fact that I'm on the outside looking in. I enjoy learning and soaking in knowledge about people from afar, you know, without having to deal with their bull. I like my child-like personality. But I definitely don't like being afraid to answer the phone, walk into a store and buy something, go back to school because of my bad attention span issues, or being so crappy at physical activities that I really want to be able to enjoy.

Trying to get to the point here, I guess.

What I want to know is why someone would be so insulted by the idea of a cure? This almost makes me think that there have to be insecurities behind it. Do you feel that AS is truly being misrepresented? Do you really feel that people want to cure us because they don't like us? Do you feel that it's simply a personal choice or that all talk of a cure should be abolished?

The only real reason I could ever come up with as to why someone would want a cure is for fame and fortune. Isn't that why pretty much everything is this world is done? If anything, that should be the insult. Cashing in on disabilities. Not curing them.

And my little disclaimer: I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or attack anyone. I just don't understand this point of view, and I want first hand beliefs and experiences for those who do not want a cure. I just want to know where you're coming from.


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30 Dec 2007, 8:36 am

I'm not offended by the idea of a cure because there isn't one and it looks like there won't be one anytime soon. I don't know what parts of Asperger's would be cured since everyone has elements of Asperger's (even NTs). If an NT was cured of Asperger's, would they lose all the aspie like traits they had? Anyway, this won't be an issue in the near future so I'm not too concerned with conjecture.


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KristaMeth
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30 Dec 2007, 8:40 am

Understand what you're saying, Alex.

The idea of an all encompassing cure sounds pretty impossible to me. I guess that's why I wonder why people seem to be so focused on the evils of something that's barely even a well formed idea yet.


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30 Dec 2007, 9:30 am

We understand AS in terms of disabilities/oddities as the criteria now. It is how it is identified. If for an example it could be seen in genetics before birth, the view would be different. In the short term it wouldn't just because most people can only relate in disability terms. It would be a revolution of sorts to view it this new way. That is part of the revolution of WP.


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30 Dec 2007, 9:45 am

Being offended at the concept of something being a disability and being offended at the concept of a cure are not the same thing. (Although there are some people who make it sound that way, and I don't really like the reasoning behind their views on cure that much.)

And the idea of a cure doesn't have to exist in order to have a strong impact on autistic people's lives, and I suspect it's that impact that people are often reacting to. For instance, my parents were at one point given concepts like 'cure' as a substitute for 'hope' (as in, specifically, things like "hope I wouldn't be taken out of their custody" and "hope I wouldn't grow up to live in an institution permanently"). That had an extreme impact on all of our lives despite the fact that a cure did not and does not exist, nor even did a thing that would enable me to learn the things I was supposed to learn in order to achieve those hoped-for goals.

And many people are subjected to things that are touted as either cures or something close to them, that often not only don't cure autism and don't help, but do the opposite of help.

And if the concept of cure can have that large, or even larger, an impact on people's lives, without even existing, then I think people are quite justified in having whatever opinions they want to about it. I do think that people who think something on the order of a simple version of "Don't cure autism because it's not a disability" don't have a very good argument for not curing things, nor a very different conception of disability than those who insist that something "is a disability" (I always find the two sides of that one oddly identical, and the debate that follows those lines mostly boring).


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30 Dec 2007, 11:03 am

Well first, I don't consider Asperger's a disability. However, a lot of the co-morbid disorder's that go ALONG with it are difficult to deal with sometimes. I've seen figures that over 50% of us are subject to mood disorder's, usually bi-polar. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is common, as well as Tourette's (which makes sense since that's a 'sort of OCD of the motor neuron system'). There are four of use in my family, myself, my wife, and both our sons. Both my wife and I have managed to make accommodation with the NT world, we function in it, but prefer to stay home when possible. Both boys are monitored and treated with mood stabilizers to control the worst aspects of mood disorders and OCD. One son does display a lot of Tourette's tic's, but that is also controlled by medication. Do I wish we had a way to "cure" the co-morbid disorders? Yes. Or control them better with fewer side effects. Do I want to be "cured" of having Asperger's? Oh HELL no.... why would I WANT to give up who I am? Why would I voluntarily take something that could erase my sense of humor, my personality as it is, my intelligence? If someone is so unhappy that they truly wish to do that, then they have my sympathy, but there are easier ways of obliterating yourself.

I said I don't think Asperger's is a disability. I don't. I think it is an evolutionary development that allowed our ancestor's (and us) to function at a higher level than NT's in some respects. The ability to concentrate, to think things through, to be a "visual thinker", those all make a better toolmaker and hunter. Yes a lot of us are "klutz's", but we can LEARN to be stealthy, or learn a martial art, and the focus we can bring to bear on such a learning process can make us VERY good at it, with practice. In the long run, I think we became better hunters, craftsmen, warriors even (in part). It's even true today, who's blazing the trails to the future? The Aspie's. Go take a look at Silicon Valley, at Microsoft headquarters, at MIT, or CalTech. If you want a personal opinion here... 8) I think that without "us", the NT's would be living in mud huts cowering away from the lightning. Cure me?? No thanks... and stay the hell away from my kids, too. The one overriding thing I've heard about "Autism Speaks" from people WITH Autism is SHUT UP...

Is classic autism something that should be treated? Absolutely, by ways of allowing those poor souls to communicate with ease. By helping them control the sensory overload that shuts down their systems. By helping them to become a part of society. OUR society.



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30 Dec 2007, 11:19 am

A cure for the many downsides of AS would be nice, but AS seems to be strongly grounded in personality traits, which are highly unchangeable. Some of these personality traits are positive, but I wouldn't say any of them make us better, stronger, smarter, or faster than NTs. We just excel in different areas, and do worse in others. A world of all NTers would be a lot more earthy, let's put it that way. But a world of only ASers wouldn't be good either. I would love to be able to function at a higher level socially, but I think you run into the same difficulties treating AS as you do treating personality disorders.

NOTE: I'm not calling AS a personality disorder, I'm just saying that like a personality disorder, it goes beyond just being a condition and it is intrinsically part of who we are.

If they could develop a medication or behavioral program that would lessen my anxiety in social situations, naturally make me be (and enjoy being) a more social person, that would be great. However, I have no desire to lose my personality, which I really like. I enjoy being intelligent, esoteric, logical, and a great critical thinker.

It's all a matter of degree of how bad it is, really. On one end of the autism spectrum are people who are completely autistic and unable to function at all. Then there is Asperger's, which some people really suffer to survive with. Then there are people who have Asperger's and are relatively high functioning - at that point is it more a different and refreshing set of personality traits than a disability. It all depends on how bad your particular incidence of AS is. I would love to see it cured in people who will never live normal lives because of it. But at the same time, I don't want every single person who is quiet, non-social, and a bit eccentric to be "cured" of something that is a normal and acceptable personality.

Of course, I admit, I don't even know if I have Asperger's. I highly suspect that I do, but I'm pretty high functioning. I don't know what it's like to be really bad off. But whatever causes me all the social dysfunction seems to go far beyond something as cut and dried as social anxiety or other disorders. I have suffered my whole life from depression and anxiety stemming from discomfort over being "different". I have always been this way and I seem to relate strongly to the people here. I think there are downsides to every type of personality - NTs exhibit a lot of bad and irrational behaviors too. But since there are more of them, they are seen as normal variants of human behavior.

AS is definitely a disorder that often needs to be treated, but it is also a set of personality traits that don't require a cure.



Last edited by kitschinator on 30 Dec 2007, 11:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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30 Dec 2007, 11:22 am

I'm not offended at the idea of a cure for my difficulties.
What DOES offend me, however, is the idea that who I am is considered to be wrong, broken, in need of fixing.


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30 Dec 2007, 11:27 am

KristaMeth,

I understand what you are saying, and a lot of it is RIGHT! AS IS, kind of, a disability. I am realizing that more and more as I hear symptoms. I thought they were NORMAL!

I don't like sports, and never really have. There WAS a time when I could run REALLY fast. If I could pace myself right, etc... I bet I could have beat anyone in the school. I didn't even bother with THAT! Sports were just not an interest. I guess that is good because, generally, I am not very good at them.

I would LOVE to be social. Just this morning I emailed a friend from here about that. I may have communicated with more females on this board privately than I have anywhere else! It just ended up that way. They are just friends. Maybe if I were 15-30 I would have been able to leverage that. OH WELL.

It is ALSO a gift of sorts, at least for some, me included. I heard a stereotype when I was a little kid about how males were supposed to be. I may not have fit it regarding love of sports, aggression, assertiveness, great math ability, but I fit other parts mentally. I was SHOCKED when I found most males really WEREN'T technically inclined, etc... Am I so inclined because I have AS? BTW I am strong in other areas also, and even the areas where I am weak, that are supposedly male strengths, really aren't.

BTW I apologize if the above paragraph sounds sexist, it really isn't. Females are ALSO rumored to have various strengths. I have some of those also, and found many females don't. Who knows HOW any surveys were skewed.

So what it all comes down to is was the 68000 disabled because it couldn't run the same code as the 8086? In many ways, the 68000 was BETTER! Yet some would consider it bad only because it couldn't directly run 8086 code! What of AMD vs. Intel? In some ways better, in others worse! AS is the same way. We have disabilities(lack certain features, etc...) and have some abilities(different features).

The only things I hate about the "autism speaks" camp are:

1. Misrepresentation of what autism is. This hurts EVERYONE!
2. Claiming they will be able to cure it when they OBVIOUSLY CAN'T!
3. Taking money for this when they haven't got a CLUE!

BTW I had/have the SAME hatred of the cancer and HIV camps, and I don't have ANY interest there.

Still, aren't you at least a LITTLE offended that they basically say you have a disability that makes you sound like a little non verbal brat that has no real mind of his/her own? GRANTED, some MIGHT fit that stereotype, but it is probably the minority, and none HERE fit it!

Heck, one of those videos showed a little girl that OBVIOUSLY had some stuff going on upstairs, and they didn't even acknowledge THAT! Her mother said she thought about killing her.



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30 Dec 2007, 11:37 am

depends, I take so many pills for conditions I would like cures too, but for many Aspergers people, or aspies, they suffer from feelings of isolation, like me, it's hard to get along with people, because of most of my traits, People don't bother with me all that much, if I trade ignorance for gifted intelligence, I would choose to be normal, and this whole superpower, thing, like most normal people, will like some guy said, I think it was shakespear, "cut off their own nose to spite the face" to be different and yet those people, can shut it off, where as being norm, is like walking a tight rope for me, so I don't know if they have a cure, I'd take it, as I have to many things wrong I can't fix easy,



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30 Dec 2007, 11:39 am

Agree with you Who_Am_I, funny how they don't use treatment rather than cure, like cure is more like cancer

A remedy or treatment used to restore health. That an actual cure for a disease is found is a very infrequent event, and announcements should be viewed with skepticism. In most cases, "treatment" is the more appropriate term.

Like look at the definition of cure:-
• bring around: provide a cure for, make healthy again; "The treatment cured the boy's acne"; "The quack pretended to heal patients but never ...
• prepare by drying, salting, or chemical processing in order to preserve; "cure meats"; "cure pickles"; "cure hay"
• make (substances) hard and improve their usability; "cure resin"; "cure cement"; "cure soap"
• be or become preserved; "the apricots cure in the sun"
• remedy: a medicine or therapy that cures disease or relieve pain

Like the name:- Centers for Disease Control and Prevention You would not think that also means Genetics



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30 Dec 2007, 11:45 am

Yes, offended. as Alex pionts out, it is just part of being human, and everyone has the same traits, more or less.

So a cure, is wanting to cure some types of DNA. There is no hope of doing that, even if all of our DNA could be reprogramed, we would not change because we already have our neuro structure.

The only possible cure is finding genetic markers that would have us selected for abortion.

So that "Cure" equals extirmination. Autism Speaks funds Genetic Research, their fund raising is directed at how we are not worthy of life. So I do get the idea they are seeking a Final Solution.

Other cures have no medical/scientific basis, such as Chelation. It is a do it your self project for parents who have done a little Internet reading, and are now giving children and babies drugs with known bad effects, to get the Mercury out, and cure the child.

It is a fraud and quackery, which goes on only because of the Autism Speaks cure propaganda, that we are not human, so risking our lives is better than having us grow up and join WP. This treatment can lead to organ failure, death, and it is just a cover for treating children to death. Cured or dead is the bottom line, living with AS is not an option. Electro shock is.

Real MD type medicine says there is no cure, no drugs, there is no treatment, just some social and occupational aids to help. From a medical point of view, there is nothing wrong with the person. Lacking social skills is not a disease.

The First Church of Psychology will cure shadows if there is money in it. They have no Medical or Scientific basis. It is the opinion of someone with a Masters Degree. By their logic, someone with an MA in History, should be able to treat people and make them Historically correct.

Their "Profession" wants to make up for a total lack of evidence, science, by experimenting on the general population. They do not agree with each other. Their code book gets rewriten every few years.
Their basis is the work of Skinner on rats in mazes. Their motto, "Psych Majors are God!"

Hannibal Lector is the poster boy of the cult.

Related cures are strangers who threaten to beat me up because something is wrong with me and they don't like it. People who steal from me because I am just some tard that the police and courts will not defend. And it was the same in school, "I will not have that thing in my classroom!" Work, you get minium wage when those you work with, same job, get twice that, and you should be grateful we even hire one of you.

In business my existance leads to people getting the idea I must be rich, because I could not have built a business by myself? When I look to pay to have somethinging made I am quoted 1000% or more of going rates. Then they ask what it is, who I am going to sell it to, and for how much?

That I am something that needs to be cured, treated, extirminated, and hence can be lied to, stolen from, be ignored in court, do not have a right to exist, does offend me.

I have been dumped on by family, school, work, business, and most of it tracks back to Psych Majors.

Every wacko group out there sees me as a target.

It seems I need to be cured of my, money, tools, business, safety, peace of mind, freedom, legal status, social standing, credibility, and the fact that I do not talk to people, do not trust them, is taken as evidence of why I need more cure.

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, has been over ridden by a cure that does not and cannot exist. The Constitution calls that Treason, and says the penality is Death. What is needed is a final solution for Psych Majors.

Their pschobabble is nothing but terrorism directed at disenfranchising a portion of the population. They do it to fund their religion, and I hold to a seperation of Religion and State.

It is a cure or be cured world.



KristaMeth
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30 Dec 2007, 11:52 am

AspieDave wrote:
Is classic autism something that should be treated? Absolutely, by ways of allowing those poor souls to communicate with ease. By helping them control the sensory overload that shuts down their systems. By helping them to become a part of society. OUR society.


I really, really did not want this to end up being a heated discussion. But. That is one of the most hypocritical things I've ever heard. Why is in Aspie good enough to stay who they are but not a classic autistic?


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KristaMeth
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30 Dec 2007, 12:02 pm

2ukenkerl wrote:
Still, aren't you at least a LITTLE offended that they basically say you have a disability that makes you sound like a little non verbal brat that has no real mind of his/her own? GRANTED, some MIGHT fit that stereotype, but it is probably the minority, and none HERE fit it!

Heck, one of those videos showed a little girl that OBVIOUSLY had some stuff going on upstairs, and they didn't even acknowledge THAT! Her mother said she thought about killing her.


This is the kind of stuff I've yet to see.

::needs resources::

I've heard a lot about the evils of Autism Speaks. Never been there. Should I check it out or what?


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30 Dec 2007, 12:11 pm

If you could selectively pick what you want to "cure" than I probably wouldn't have a problem with a cure.

I'd cure the phone issue, the store thing, the clumsy factor that makes me a danger to myself and others at times :lol: , ...and I wouldn't mind being able to carry on a serious verbal conversation with someone without sounding like a stuttering airhead. :wink:

I guess the big factor is "who" decides "what" and "how much" to cure? And at what age do you start...before or after a child's sense of individuality has started to develop...later in life...only if the parents are having problems?

Do we turn out like good little socially acceptable Stepford wives...or do you leave some things intact? That's the scary part. 8O


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